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[Essay] Snowballing - Why DotA had it right and LoL is still learning

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MuscleMemory

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
L0CUST:

and so are the elixirs..

-L0CUST



This this this!

Buy elixers to help counteract a game snowballing in the other teams favor, 900 gold for all 3 and they make you alot better for the next 5 mins, if your whole team buys you can change the tide of the game


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R66Y

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
EasymodeX:
THIS. You kind of slipped past this point, but this is major. In DotA, cheap items are way more efficient than expensive items. Even if you are behind by 1000 gold versus your opponent, if you spend on cheap items (Bracer stack) instead of saving up 3200 for a Reaver, you can still keep up with their character strength (or even exceed it in the short-term).

One of the #1 problems with LoL's item system and growth of champions is that the low-tier and mid-tier items are not highly efficient compared to the 3k+ items. Haunting Guise, Brutalizer -- all these items should be vastly more efficient than an IE.

Big items do not have a premium cost from fewer inventory slots in LoL. This, combined with the lack of a gold drain on death, means a losing team cannot strategically gank an enemy carry. The losing team cannot invest in mid-tier items or low-tier items to gain an early/mid advantage.

Fed players should gain an advantage from raw power totals, not from efficient stats. Sure, a fed <insert carry> can have their Trinity Force or IE. However, a player who has less gold should be able to buy a Brutalizer + Exec Calling and be almost as effective. In a similar way where, between a Reaver and 5x Bracers ... the Bracers are far and away superior.


More cost effective low teir items has been suggested and ignored before (e.g. http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=23451). I still think it is a good idea and would help diversify the game and could potentially stop a snowball (either by investing in short term items to give a boost which is used to win back some team fights or by playing defensively when the other team invests in short term and looking at winning the long game).

As for first kill deciding games, I don't think it is as bad as OP made it out where Im playing (I pretty much define a casual player). A few kills difference between teams is rarely an instant gg. Now going 10-0 in team kills in the first 10 minutes is a different story, because the only time I see that is when one person is being fed (4+ kills on their lane), in which case you have a person snowballing which can LEAD to team snowballing. But my counter argument to that is...why should coming back from such a horrendous start be even remotely easy? Even OP states that something like 1 out of 5 games results in a comeback, so it is possible. The biggest problem I see in the ELO bracket I play in is very few people know how to play from behind. I imagine in the higher ELOs it's less your team teams randomly initiating team battles they can't win and more winning teams less likely to make mistakes. At the end of the day it comes down to the same thing regardless of where you are playing, does the other team make a mistake and can you capitalize on it. I don't think this is something that should or even can be fixed, as the team with the fewer mistakes should be the one to win.

All that said, I do like some of the ideas presented in here. in addition to the item suggestion above, I especially liked the idea of rewards for kills being based off of relative levels of the characters involved.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
MuscleMemory:
This this this!

Buy elixers to help counteract a game snowballing in the other teams favor, 900 gold for all 3 and they make you alot better for the next 5 mins, if your whole team buys you can change the tide of the game


Thats pretty risky - if you can't make a comeback, you end up losing 900 gold.


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TrickyCat

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Larias:
So I was playing around with math, and you're a little off. Note: I include aegis aura because I don't know any group that doesn't have one.

READ THIS FIRST: I use the additive, where DR is added directly to armor/MR resistances, instead of the correct formula, which is it's added after. For example, 200 * .5 * .85 is different than 200 * .35 (85 vs 70). This means that my value for Leviathan is higher than it should be. However, it is not 2000g over. At most, it's around a 500g difference.)

Starting MR of 30 (amumu), chalice, mercury treads, aura from aegis of the legion = 119, or 54.3% reduction. To get to 69.3% reduction, you would need around 226 magic resist. This is a total of 107 magic resist. Assuming 16g per point of mag resist (roughly what negatron cloak is - nullmagic cloak is actually 16.6g per point), this is 1712g.

Starting armor of 51.3 (level 12 amumu), just 1 armor item (sunfire cape, standard amumu build), and chalice aura: 120.3 armor, or 54.6% reduction. To get to 69.6%, you would need 229 armor. This is a gain of 108.7 armor. Assuming armor is valued at 16g (again, split between cloth armor price/chain vest price), this is worth 1739.2g

Health gained from Leviathan fully stacked: 640. At 2.6g per health, this is 2132.

Total gold: 5583. Not 3500.

Don't try to say "complicated math" to back up your facts.

Edit: apparently http://www.leagueoflegends.com/items/view/3041/mejai_s_soulstealer is out of date. Updated mejai's gold worth.
Oh, random note. AP is worth ~21.6 gold. Mejais fully stacked gives 220. This is 4752 gold. Cooldown reduction is cheap, roughly 21g per %(this is assuming the steep cost of Fiendish Codex. For ridiculously lower prices, check out Brutalizer), or 315g for mejai's. Total worth? 5067.



I think this highlights the problem with mejais and leviathan's.

Leviathan's worth comes primarily from getting all 20 stacks, rather than the power per stack.

So, basically the gold worth gained per stack is much higher for mejai's than leviathan's (Until 20 stacks is acquired, in which case, leviathan becomes a powerhouse, but that's going to be rare in a real match.)


so if we calculate gold per stack based on your numbers,

Leviathan's gains 83.2g per stack if my math is right (32 hp a stack.)

Mejai's gains a wopping 216 gold per stack (10 ap per stack.)

so essentially, Leviathan's only becomes on equal footing with mejai's when it's fully charged. Otherwise it's an inferior snowball item.


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TrickyCat

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Charmicarmicarmicat:
Thats pretty risky - if you can't make a comeback, you end up losing 900 gold.



If you can't make a comeback, you lose the game anyways. When you're backed into a corner you have to take more risks. that's true in just about every game.


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Benoit

Recruiter

02-16-2010

Good read once again.


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IamGrimm

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Enai Siaion:
I notice a suspicious lack of arguments in these replies, only ad hominem attacks.


You both took me too serious on that comment. I actually laughed and meant the +1. Or I wouldn't have said it.
And people always complaining sarcasm is hard to spot when it's text.. Bit overzealous on the spotting there I think =P



On topic.. slightly: Been reading every post here, because its interesting.


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Alaric11

Senior Member

02-16-2010

My team often has a player go 0-5 in the first 10 minutes, be it premade or pug. But with superior coordination(via vent of course), we can always make a comeback from neaerly any deffecit.

I reckon that is differant at higher levels of play.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
TrickyCat:
If you can't make a comeback, you lose the game anyways. When you're backed into a corner you have to take more risks. that's true in just about every game.


I don't nessesarily disagree, but buying a temporary item when you're already behind CAN be a double edged sword.

Sometimes it's better to finish certain important items.


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Neferim

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Larias, I know you prefaced your post with the fact that you used additive and not multiplicative values for Leviathan and that it caused your numbers to be off, but I think you underestimated how much it would set you back. Using the multiplicative value of 15% we see that your damage reduction for MR would only bump you up to 61.155% damage reduced. I got this as follows. Your starting value was 54.3% reduction, and you're reducing the rest by another 15%. .15*45.7 = 6.855. 54.3+6.855 = 61.155, the target number.

Using the formula

%dmg taken = 100/(100+armor or MR)

.38845 = 100/(100+x)

x=157

So you need 157 magic resist to reach that goal, and you started in your example with 119. That means you only need 38 more MR to match Leviathan's reduction for magic, which using your estimated 16 gold per point of MR means it's only worth 608 gold. You are already off by over a thousand gold, so your estimate of using the additive adjusting your figures by 500 gold at most is wildly incorrect.