[Essay] Snowballing - Why DotA had it right and LoL is still learning

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

crenel

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
OF course, an early kill is also harder than a late kill.
I agree that an early kill is harder than a late kill, but at the same time an early kill isn't exactly difficult either. I've been in games where first blood has been achieved before the 90 second mark more than once.

Either you get lucky and 2v1 someone in a lane, or chose the right start item/skill, or simply used Ignite+Champion skill. It does happen though, and at surprisingly frequent intervals.

Edit:

A simple fix would be diminishing returns on player kills. The longer your streak goes the less reward you get. That way you're rewarded for slaying the people who likewise have streaks (as there already exists a gold bonus for that) and are discouraged from eating feeder kills.

Should also consider making it so that if you have a massive death streak you get a reward for breaking that. If that happens and you manage to slay someone with a huge kill streak in the process then it will help you get back into the game a bit.

Not a full solution and probably flawed still, yes. However I do feel that making it harder to maintain a streak is something the game should examine.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Constrictor

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickles View Post
Although I agree with constrictor when it comes to reducing kill money/exp. I'm iffy about mejai.
Mejai's with full stacks is the equivalent of over 5000 gold worth of items.

By contrast, the other two snoball items are around 3500 gold worth of items at full stacks.

They either need to nerf mejai's or buff the other two items, and I think the snowball factor should be toned down, hence, nerf mejai's.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Larias

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Adjudicator

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constrictor View Post
By contrast, the other two snoball items are around 3500 gold worth of items at full stacks.
Could you please tell me how you came up for a gold-value of 15% less damage taken? Just curious.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kadzin

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Our philosophy on this issue is that individual snowballing is good, and team snowballing is bad. Right now, team snowballing occurs too much -- one super carry twitch is a lot easier to handle than 5 guys who are 3 levels higher than each of you.

We are going to make some experience table tweaks to reduce team snowballing without hurting individual snowballing much. We are also going to make a new 3 lane map that is larger, has less cross-map connectivity (so that there is higher cost to 5 man roam, and less shutdown of the farming/laning phase via the first tower being down), etc.

We probably will nerf flash.

We wont be nerfing snowball items. Emotional highs from the game you super carried make this genre sticky. We removed it too much in the beta, and it cost us. Sorry, but being super carry annie or super carry corki once in a while gets a player through the 8 defeat in a row streak they hit the next day.

I'm on the fence about early gold for kills. It's been something we have been talking about, for the reason you cite. OF course, an early kill is also harder than a late kill.
Ty Zileas.
I got one thing to add,
I think the neutral buffs (golem and lizard) should NOT reset their duration when transfered to your killer, they would continue their duration, if they only had 30 seconds left on them, then the enemy would only get 30 seconds of them.
/agree with everything else


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Constrictor

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
Could you please tell me how you came up for a gold-value of 15% less damage taken? Just curious.
I could go into some REALLY long explanation, but suffice it to say it comes out to be worth approximately 45 armor and 45 magic resist on your typical tank character. If you OBSCENELY stack armor/mr then it's worth more but you need values of 300+ on each for this to be the case.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Avloren

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constrictor View Post
Mejai's with full stacks is the equivalent of over 5000 gold worth of items.

By contrast, the other two snoball items are around 3500 gold worth of items at full stacks.

They either need to nerf mejai's or buff the other two items, and I think the snowball factor should be toned down, hence, nerf mejai's.
The balance is horrible long before you reach full stacks as well. Mejai's becomes cost effective at 4 stacks; that is to say, at 4 stacks it starts giving more benefit than you would've gotten by spending the same amount of gold on items with flat bonuses. You only need 2 kills or 4 assists to make Mejai's more cost effective than comparable AP items. Leviathan outpaces basic +hp items at 10 stacks. Sword of the Occult is harder to judge since there are no straight +crit damage items to compare it to, but if we compare quints we can say that 2% crit damage = 1 damage, meaning each stack is worth 3 damage total. This means the sword needs 7 stacks to match comparable damage items. The sword has other problems though, damage and crit damage is a terrible combination unless you're Shaco.. but even if we assume you've bought some crit chance items in addition to the sword to actually make use of the crit damage bonus, an extra requirement neither Leviathan nor Mejai's needs to be useful, it still falls short of Mejai's.

Basically, all arguments about snowballing aside, Mejai's is just flat out better than other AP items and other snowballing items and needs a nerf. If it gave half as much AP per stack it'd be closer to balanced, still easily better than Leviathan and arguably better than Sword depending on how much use you can make of crit damage, that's how far out of line Mejai's is.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZenithZephyr

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Agree with reducing hero gill rewards, and increasing laning rewards.

Also, remove the INCREASE in xp and gold a kill is worth when assisted. Getting an xtra 70% xp and gold because you had help killing someone is cohesive to gank squads.

Right now, 5-man steamrolling three people gives slightly more XP and gold to the team than a single person acing an entire team by themself.

Divide xp/gold 60% for the killer, with the remaining 40% being split among the assisters.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Talamare

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Mejai should be 6 AP per stack

140 AP for only 1200g is huge and it gives you a free 15% cd

The next item that comes close to doing that is Zhoryans ring at 4,000 or Fiend Codex + 3 Blast staff at 3500?


btw AP items are suppose to be weak, mages arent suppose to get too strong because when they do they just become insta burst


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SkepticalMind

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferim View Post
LoL will only pioneer that style of play in a MOBA if they do it really soon. Dota 6.67 is going to have a zone control game mode that involves taking control of certain areas to gain different types of team-wide auras. So says Icefrog himself.
Uh, Demigod?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

hoodedmanx

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Snowball items need to die.