Caitlyn- Last Whisper/Armor Pen synergy

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Shosuko

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Senior Member

03-24-2011

If the enemies you want to kill buy armor against you - get last whisper

If the enemies you want to kill aren't buying armor - get ghostblade + black cleaver


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Jebbou

Senior Member

03-25-2011

Yeah, you'd better ignore the crit bonus, since it improves the efficiency of all other items that Caitlyn would have got before getting it. All in all, the only way to really compare the efficiency of both items is to incorporate them into an actual build and then crunch the numbers. I'd be interested in seeing what items you've got before getting the madreds, so that we can throw this into the league craft builder (although we might have to calculate the magic damage outside the system). Once we have that, we'll start a separate thread, since we're a bit off topic (and I actually found the OP quite interesting).


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kwjnfkjsdg

Senior Member

03-25-2011

ARmor pen runes for caitlyn . always. she is a very powerful early game champ, and with armor pen marks/quints u are pretty much dealing true damage to enemies in the first few levels. extremely effective for denying and gimping the enemy mid, which is your job.

late game you are no more than the typical autoattacking carry. all ranged ad carries have their own ways of killing stuff early to mid game (ezreal has his skillshots, mf has her ult, corki has his gatling gun), but when it comes down to it, late game their main source of damage is their autoattack, thus you should build her as such. get inifnity edge FIRST to maximize Q and R damage, then get phantom dancer. i almost always get last whisper next because at lvl 18 even if enemies have no armor items, it's still close to the first biggest armor pen item. if enemies are smart and get some defense to counter you, LW>all for armor pen.


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Sorbon

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Senior Member

03-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebbou View Post
I'm quite sceptical about the "Caitlyn transitions into the Madred's style late-game [especially when facing a tougher team]]".

4% of 4000 HP = 160 magic damage, reduced by almost half since you are targeting a tough enemy with at least 80 magic resistance (assume Negatron + 30 Natural ). This means about 90 extra magic damage per hit for 4000 Gold. That's pretty expensive for the benefits you get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morsigil View Post
I'm not going to weigh in on the larger argument, but I will ruin your fun by saying that the infinity edge, an item that costs more than madred's, would provide half the damage Madred's does (not including the crit bonus, just as you ignored the attack speed on madred) after reductions in this instance. Consider that.
They are both slot efficient items. The gold cost is extremely high because both of these will offer in damage what, in most cases, takes 2 item slots.

I personally don't think Bloodrazor's a great item on her, because she's the most skill dependent of all the ranged AD carries (except MF), which means if you want to play to her skillset you need to focus on AD/ArPen items. It can work though, certainly, depending on the enemy team.

I would say you get a LW on Caitlyn for the same reason you get Void Staff on Karthus. You want to be sure that ult finishes them, or make the tank who interrupts sorry he did.

But, like the OP alluded to, flat armor pen and % armor pen have diminishing returns when used together. They actually do not synergize at all. Pick up a Black Cleaver if they aren't building armor, and pick up a Last Whisper if they are. Flat armor pen marks for the early game, of course.


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ForeverLaxx

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Senior Member

03-25-2011

Apparently whoever minused my post misunderstood the point. The point was comparing how Caitlyn plays late-game and how she would best handle tougher targets. Early-game you pick up raw damage + armor pen items because it's much easier to actually use Peacemaker in combat. Late-game that becomes unfeasible for any situation beyond poking. She's too squishy to sit in a spot for 1 second channeling Peacemaker unless you're in no danger of getting initiated upon and you're likely to hit more than one target. It's at this stage of the game that your focus moves to auto-attacks.

Since your focus has shifted to auto-attacks, you likely have some attack speed and flat armor pen already, maybe from Black Cleaver. You might even have a Ghostblade if you opted for an early Brutalizer. My point here is that you already have the components that cause Last Whisper to be less efficient, so the best way for you to get more damage (if you actually NEED to get more) on tough targets is to work towards a Bloodrazor. Yes, MR will reduce the damage of the Bloodrazor but now you've diversified your damage source, you're still hitting decently hard with the physical portion of your auto-attacks, and you have plenty of attack speed to take full advantage of it.

Of course, I've always hated Void Staff/Last Whisper except in very specific cases because the champions picking them up shouldn't be targeting the enemies they were designed to help counter.


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Mr Threepwood

Senior Member

03-25-2011

Excepting of course for the fact that you have two choices for flat Mpen, and while one is a greatly gold efficient item, it's slot efficiency is awful.

Moving on though, you don't get cleaver early on Cait, you get infinity edge, parts of PD perhaps. Diversify your damage source? You mean reduce the effects of armor mitigation? You have a mage don't you? If no one on your team has magic damage in reasonable quantities maybe you should be going malady, wits end, SotD, you already have a bunch of physical carries.

What you're ignoring about Infinity edge is that the 20% increased crit chance (when it's the first crit chance you get) is essentially multiplying your entire damage up to this point by 1.2. Of course, it's even more because of it's 25% increase to damage when you do crit. (250 is 25% more than 200). When you crit madreds does nothing, and a 4k HP target is not realistic unless you're fighting Cho'Gath or Vladamir. The fact that madreds does add physical damage, attack speed and armor certainly figure in though.


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Jebbou

Senior Member

03-25-2011

"Apparently whoever minused my post misunderstood the point. The point was comparing how Caitlyn plays late-game and how she would best handle tougher targets. [...] Of course, I've always hated Void Staff/Last Whisper except in very specific cases because the champions picking them up shouldn't be targeting the enemies they were designed to help counter"

Eh. In fact, I really got your point. When I read about Cait being more focused on skills early game, and then moving on to the auto-attack style late game, I really though "hey, this totally make sense!". But then I read about the Madred's part. The main problem of the Madred is that you nerf your total damage output on squishies (your valued targets) to improve your damage on tougher opponents. This totally goes in the lines of why you hate LW so much.


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ForeverLaxx

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03-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebbou View Post
"Apparently whoever minused my post misunderstood the point. The point was comparing how Caitlyn plays late-game and how she would best handle tougher targets. [...] Of course, I've always hated Void Staff/Last Whisper except in very specific cases because the champions picking them up shouldn't be targeting the enemies they were designed to help counter"

Eh. In fact, I really got your point. When I read about Cait being more focused on skills early game, and then moving on to the auto-attack style late game, I really though "hey, this totally make sense!". But then I read about the Madred's part. The main problem of the Madred is that you nerf your total damage output on squishies (your valued targets) to improve your damage on tougher opponents. This totally goes in the lines of why you hate LW so much.
Yes, but the argument at hand was about increasing damage against tougher opponents, and if I really have to I prefer Madred's in this case over Last Whisper. I wouldn't buy either on her if I could avoid it.


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