hornmail info(with math)

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Qolde

Member

03-27-2011

yea honestly, just get some mr items, and you should be good to go. also, this is one of those situations where your mage can do more damage than you. its up to your team to take up some of the slack against someone with thornmail if you really cant manage to stop them.


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redrobin3

Senior Member

03-30-2011

Bump so ppl learn the proper counter to thornmail


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redrobin3

Senior Member

04-07-2011

bump through the power of math


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redrobin3

Senior Member

04-26-2011

bump to reveal the light that thornmail is too cheap for such a good counter to AD champs


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redrobin3

Senior Member

05-26-2011

bump so everone can calculate their counters to thornmail


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OutlawStarx2

Senior Member

05-27-2011

Comments in Bold

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrobin3 View Post
Thornmail is proven to shut down physicals hardcore but now there's math that shows just how much it shuts physicals down.

Formula:

(1-A/A+100)*D*LS=D*(.3*(1-MR/MR+100)
A/A=1 also MR/MR=1... So... what this is telling me (1-1+100)*D*LS=D*(1-1+100)
you are also telling me...
D*LS=D which i am fairly certain is incorrect

Also i'm no even sure what this first formula is trying to proove



Legend:
  • A=opponent armor
  • D=Your damage
  • LS=Your lifesteal
  • MR=Your magic resist

How to use:
Simply add in your opponents armor your magic resist and your current damage and you will see how much lifesteal u need to break even on your own damage from thornmail.


Conclusion:
Doing some quick and easy numbers 25% armor requires 40% lifesteal to penetrate 50% armor requires 60% alright this seems reasonable sort of now watch this 75% requires 120%. This 75% is the tank. This means that unless u manage to get 120% lifesteal u can't ever touch the tank EVER. If you do you will never win. Now applying some fancy additions you can further determine the extent of the damage if you fall short of meeting the expected LS.(yes this is just shifting around the original formula to show what numbers are left)

The section above is complete bull

As long as you have 30%+ life steal you can survive attacking a tank with thornmail with absolutely no repercussions also it's not too hard for an AD crit carry to tear through a tank


Second formula:

D*(.3*(1-MR/MR+100)-(1-A/A+100)*D*LS = Damage taken

the above formula is plain wrong.

(D*LS) - (D*.3* [1-MR]) = Damage taken or life gained from attacking a champ with Thornmail

where 1-MR is the the amount of damage not blocked by MR assuming we are looking at MR as a percentage. so if your MR is 30% you take 70% of the damage that would be done to you by the thornmail, however you gain life from lifesteal at the same time and that is the full percentage.

So far i have no idea where you learn how to do math


How to use:
plug in all the numbers and see what you get.

Note: I am not calling thornmail OP but I am saying it's too good a shut down on physicals.Also note that getting 5 fully charged Blood Thirsters will cause you to actually fight back against a rammus to some extent so might want to try that out when the game has lasted 2 hours.

edit: Apparently pressing enter instantly posts your topic and i can't change the name back to thornmail after accidentally deleting the T ><
Here is a VERY GOOD AD build that involves LS

AS boots
IE
PD
Executioners calling
Bloodthirster
Banshee's vale

you're have 38% LS 70% crit chance 250% crit damage and 140-180 AD and 80% increased AS

Assuming your AD carry has 100 base AD and .9 base AS at lvl 18 you'll be doing
about 200 damage per hit (70% of the time) at a rate of 1.6 attacks per second, and that's assuming that the enemy has 70% armor and you have no armor pen.

With 5 max blood thirsters under the same scenario you'll be doing about the same amount of DPS and have 100% LS however that's assuming that they are MAXed. However you will have almost no survivability have less speed and the other build will be doing far more damage if you happen to have a higher base AD than assumed (which is normally the case).

also, if you're just attacking a tank with thornmail and you have NO MR the thornmail won't kill you by it's self unless the tank has 3x the amount of HP you have.


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Effahr Cae

Junior Member

05-27-2011

Thing is, Thornmail reflects damage as if you had zero armor. 30% Lifesteal will not necessarily counter the 30% damage reflection, as your Lifesteal is affected by enemy armor, but the reflection from Thornmail isn't.

Suppose someone hits me with a critical attack that does 1000 damage before my Armor reduces it. With 200 armor, the reduction is slightly less than 67%. Meaning I will take slightly more than 33%. I would take about 333 damage. However, the damage reflection does NOT use the 333 damage. It uses the 1000 damage, so I reflect back 300 magic damage, not 100 magic damage.

On the other hand, your lifesteal is affected by armor. Your 1000 critical damage reduced to 333 as in the above example? Your 38% Lifesteal uses the 333 damage value, not the 1000 up there. You're only restoring roughly 127 HP on each attack.

Granted, Magic Resistance does reduce the incoming magic damage. Perhaps you have 70 MR. So the 300 reflected magic damage is reduced to around 176. You still lose around 49 HP per attack with the above lifesteal.


Bottom line: Armor reduces effectiveness of Lifesteal. Armor does not reduce effectiveness of Thornmail. Attacker's Magic Resistance reduces effectiveness of Thornmail.

The formula given by OP here is based on Armor reducing Lifesteal and Magic Resistance reducing reflected damage, and producing a ratio out of that.

Speaking of which, I prefer my own formula: "Negative Lifesteal" = 30% * (100+UserArmor) / (100+AttackerMagRes)

I can back that formula up in a detailed post, if you wish.


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sofawall

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Senior Member

05-27-2011

Of course, just saying that Thornmail does damage to you is sort of pointless. Yes, it can be fun sometimes to realize that wow, it takes a lot of lifesteal to match a Thornmail, but a) that's not how to beat a Thornmail, and b) the important question is not whether you are taking damage from the Thornmail through your lifesteal, but whether you will kill yourself before you kill the tank. Unfortunately, if you are someone who attacks purely using physical autoattacks (like perhaps Yi), you often will. Especially against Rammus. Man, so much damage from hitting a Thornmailed Rammus.


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redrobin3

Senior Member

05-27-2011

Outlaw corrected the second formula i seem to have forgotten that second ) causing it to be easily mis read my bad. But I have this awesome build which works everytime. Trinity,boots,IE,banshees,warmogs,madreds.


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Killzerz

Senior Member

05-27-2011

Why are hitting the tank with thornmail on him? Most other characters won't itemize with this, so again, why are you focusing the tank? And even if off-tanks get this, it is probably their only armor, so you should still be able to kill them before they kill you. Stop QQ because you're Tryndamere/Vayne and can't carry.