### hornmail info(with math)

Zax Underdark

Senior Member

Okay I'm sure this has been said but I'll say it again.

First off, every champion in the game, no matter what role they are playing should be buying Hp, Armor, and Magic res.

Second, Thornmail returns the damage in MAGIC damage, so get some **** Magic Res.

Third, with just Merc Trends (which of course your getting) your reducing a nice chunk of the damage, since most tank (note I said most) don't get spell pen

Snarvelbug

Junior Member

Your formula is wrong. Thornmail returns damage done, after armor.

Quote:
+100 Armor UNIQUE Passive: On being hit by standard attacks, returns 30% of damage taken as magic damage.
It should look a little more like

LS = .3 * [ 1- MR/(MR+100) ]

I assumed your Magic Resistance formula was correct. In the case it isn't, and since I'm too lazy to try and check, you can just use the MR%, which is going to look like

LS = .3 * (1 - MR%)

Unless for some reason you have negative MR you'll always equal out before 30% lifesteal.

I don't tend to play tanks or physical dps, so it's possible this is wrong and damage reflected is calculated before armor, but if it is then the tooltip on Thornmail is wrong.

Xervous

Senior Member

thornmail damage is calculated before armor.

Looking at OP's formula, I quickly saw that your AD score is irrelevant to the efficiency of lifesteal VS thornmail.

it simplifies down to:

10/3 * (MR + 100) / (AR + 100) * LS = efficiency.

when efficiency is less than 1, you are hurting yourself by attacking the thornmail wearer, if it is equal to 1 or greater, you aren't hurting yourself.

Snarvelbug

Junior Member

Then the tooltip needs to be fixed.

Edit: Or is it possible that it's unintended? Either way, something needs fixing.

redrobin3

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xervous
thornmail damage is calculated before armor.

Looking at OP's formula, I quickly saw that your AD score is irrelevant to the efficiency of lifesteal VS thornmail.

it simplifies down to:

10/3 * (MR + 100) / (AR + 100) * LS = efficiency.

when efficiency is less than 1, you are hurting yourself by attacking the thornmail wearer, if it is equal to 1 or greater, you aren't hurting yourself.
AD is there to generate numbers for how much lifesteal is needed to counter thornmail using their armor, your damage, and your MR but that formula is nice to generate a simple yes or no.

redrobin3

Senior Member

bump
I want to see more builds to fight against thornmail using this formula.

JayceJa

Senior Member

so all it really shows is what most people should already know, flat lifesteal is not a counter to thornmail in any reasonable way, and even MR+armor pen+lifesteal together still requires more investment than a thornmail did to break even

is it just me that feels its too hard to counter for such a cheap item? if it gave the same passive on a 3k item with more stats(so its not less efficient or worse for its cost, just a bigger item), it would be perfect, but its too small and too easy to go out of any build to grab, against physical attackers, theres no reason to ever not get one on a tank or semitank

Khalahn

Senior Member

The counter to Thornmail is armor penetration and anything that deals magical damage on hit, such as Bloodrazors, Sword of the Divine, Malady, or any of the active damage items.

redrobin3

Senior Member

due to ppl calling thornmail op i hereby bump this formula so you too can learn the secret of killing thornmail