Vulgarity's Guide to Pantheon

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Fbsunny

Senior Member

02-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulgarity View Post
The useage of the attack speed is to take advantage of moments where you are unable to spam a move. I.E. during a chase where stopping to throw spear for anything other than the killshot can put the opponent too far ahead of you to catch up. Thus, a higher attack speed helps greatly in delivering your maximum throughput. Also keep in mind that if you throw in a Black Cleaver at the tail end, the faster you get up those stacks the more damage you put out. Thus there are times where the attack speed increases your overall throughput. It also seems that Q and E both benefit from armor penetration thus why Last Whisper comes in handy for the attack speed.
The only thing I don't understand in your post is how attack speed would help you when you are chasing an enemy. If you don't have the time to throw a spear, are you really gonna have the time to auto attack? I just don't see how the attack speed will help in this situation. It is more useful in killing dragon/golem/lizard and in 1v1 fights.


With armor penetration runes/masteries and brutalizer I find that I don't often need any more armor penetration, at least not till late game when some enemies will start stacking more armor. This is why I don't get Last Whisper till I already have lots of damage (75+).

Lastly, I dissaprove of the general idea of getting both armor reduction and % armor penetration. In my mind it makes sense to get either
Black Cleaver and Stark's Fervor
or
Last Whisper

If you have a black cleaver already, it greatly reduces the cost effectiveness of last whisper.

Edit: Typo


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ePiMagnets

Senior Member

02-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbsunny View Post
The only thing I don't understand in your post is how attack speed would help you when you are chasing an enemy. If you don't have the time to throw a spear, are you really gonna have the time to auto attack? I just don't see how the attack speed will help in this situation. It is more useful in killing dragon/golem/lizard and in 1v1 fights.
Ever been chased by someone with high attack speed and at least a pair of boots 2? Coupled with movespeed and attack speed they basically takes a step and smack you, take another step and smacks you again. Now imagine what happens if he's chasing without a lot of attack speed. He chases for a few steps, then a smack, chases a few more steps and another smack. By adding in the attack speed you lessen that effect and have more throughput while chasing. If you are stopping to throw a spear (which has a longer pause than chasing while auto-attacking) you may lose them entirely if that spear isn't a killing blow.

By having Last Whisper or Starks it means that not only are you swinging faster, but you are also hitting harder thanks to the armor penetration or armor reduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbsunny View Post
With armor penetration runes/masteries and brutalizer I find that I don't often need any more armor penetration, at least not till late game when some enemies will start stacking more armor. This is why I don't get Last Whisper till I already have lots of damage (75+).
And that's fine, it works for your play style, I find that this works with mine quite well. However, remember that last Whisper is 40% armor ignored and a little attack speed. Where it's picked up isn't a big deal, I happen to try and pick it up earlier so the bonus in damage is actually felt immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbsunny View Post
Lastly, I dissaprove of the general idea of getting both armor reduction and % armor penetration. In my mind it makes sense to get either
Black Cleaver and Stark's Fervor
or
Last Whisper

If you have a black cleaver already, it greatly reduces the cost effectiveness of last whisper.
Take into account the following, by stacking armor reduction, % penetration and linear penetration you increase your damage greatly. Believe me when I say that the damage output is crazy and definitely helps when you have to kill people quickly. The following is how they work together. And while yes I do agree that by having Black Cleaver you reduce the effectiveness of Last Whisper, you still get to take advantage of further reducing the armor calculation when you attack with a physical ability or auto-attack.

From the mechanics thread:

Quote:
Armor/MR Reduction
% Based Armor/MR Penetration
Flat/Linear Armor/MR Penetration
Thus, Black Cleaver is figured in, then your last whisper with runes and brutalizer figured in last. The closer to 0 your bring their armor, the better. Bigger hits means people are retreating faster or dying and you can move onto the next target. Since Pantheon's Q and E are physical, the reduction of armor helps with increasing the damage of those two abilities.

If we assume a target has 100 armor, you have Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and Brutalizer in your build. We'll assume 200 damage per swing, this means that before Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and Brutalizer are taken into account you have to deal 400 damage you'd have to swing twice. Each point of armor is 1% more damage they have to take in order to die. Thus at 100 armor and 2000 health, they have to actually take 4000 points worth of damage.

Again from the Mechanics thread:

Quote:
Every 1 armor means the damage it takes to kill you is extended by 1% of your hitpoints. At 100 armor, it takes 100% more damage to kill you, ie it requires double damage, ie you're taking half-damage. At 300 armor you're taking 25% damage, etc.
Assuming max stacks of Black Cleaver at -12 armor per stack up to 5 stacks.

100 - 60 = 40

Followed by Last Whisper

40 - 16 = 24

Followed by Brutalizer

24 - 15 = 9

Then Runes and Masteries, we'll assume 6 from masteries and only 9 arpen marks.

9 - 24 = -15

Now this brings up the fact that % and flat reduction don't have an affect once they hit 0. So effectively you have reduced your opponent to 0 armor. If anything we can assume that really Brutalizer isn't necessary for an offensive build that takes Sunder and has the armor penetration runes to support it.

And let's do one for Black Cleaver (60) + Starks (25)

100 - 85 = 25

Masteries (-6) + runes (-18) assuming marks only and no quintessence

25 - 24 = 1

If we instead assume Marks + Quintessence ( -29)

25 - 39 = -14

Which means 0 armor since you can't reduce past 0 using flat or percentage penetration.

At this point I think what we should be discussing then is: For the most optimal setup should we be dropping Brutalizer AND last Whisper from the build discussion to reduce bloat and simply add in Stark's Fervor instead if we're going to grab a Black Cleaver? 1337 + 1965 = 3302 in gold to put towards those two items (assuming dropping Last Whisper and Brutalizer).

Edit: clarification and quoting from the mechanics thread.


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Buhamut Zeo

Senior Member

02-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulgarity View Post
Ever been chased by someone with high attack speed and at least a pair of boots 2? Coupled with movespeed and attack speed they basically takes a step and smack you, take another step and smacks you again. Now imagine what happens if he's chasing without a lot of attack speed. He chases for a few steps, then a smack, chases a few more steps and another smack. By adding in the attack speed you lessen that effect and have more throughput while chasing. If you are stopping to throw a spear (which has a longer pause than chasing while auto-attacking) you may lose them entirely if that spear isn't a killing blow.

By having Last Whisper or Starks it means that not only are you swinging faster, but you are also hitting harder thanks to the armor penetration or armor reduction.



And that's fine, it works for your play style, I find that this works with mine quite well. However, remember that last Whisper is 40% armor ignored and a little attack speed. Where it's picked up isn't a big deal, I happen to try and pick it up earlier so the bonus in damage is actually felt immediately.



Take into account the following, by stacking armor reduction, % penetration and linear penetration you increase your damage greatly. Believe me when I say that the damage output is crazy and definitely helps when you have to kill people quickly. The following is how they work together. And while yes I do agree that by having Black Cleaver you reduce the effectiveness of Last Whisper, you still get to take advantage of further reducing the armor calculation when you attack with a physical ability or auto-attack.

From the mechanics thread:



Thus, Black Cleaver is figured in, then your last whisper with runes and brutalizer figured in last. The closer to 0 your bring their armor, the better. Bigger hits means people are retreating faster or dying and you can move onto the next target. Since Pantheon's Q and E are physical, the reduction of armor helps with increasing the damage of those two abilities.

If we assume a target has 100 armor, you have Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and Brutalizer in your build. We'll assume 200 damage per swing, this means that before Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and Brutalizer are taken into account you have to deal 400 damage you'd have to swing twice. Each point of armor is 1% more damage they have to take in order to die. Thus at 100 armor and 2000 health, they have to actually take 4000 points worth of damage.

Again from the Mechanics thread:



Assuming max stacks of Black Cleaver at -12 armor per stack up to 5 stacks.

100 - 60 = 40

Followed by Last Whisper

40 - 16 = 24

Followed by Brutalizer

24 - 15 = 9

Then Runes and Masteries, we'll assume 6 from masteries and only 9 arpen marks.

9 - 24 = -15

Now this brings up the fact that % and flat reduction don't have an affect once they hit 0. So effectively you have reduced your opponent to 0 armor. If anything we can assume that really Brutalizer isn't necessary for an offensive build that takes Sunder and has the armor penetration runes to support it.

And let's do one for Black Cleaver (60) + Starks (25)

100 - 85 = 25

Masteries (-6) + runes (-18) assuming marks only and no quintessence

25 - 24 = 1

If we instead assume Marks + Quintessence ( -29)

25 - 39 = -14

Which means 0 armor since you can't reduce past 0 using flat or percentage penetration.

At this point I think what we should be discussing then is: For the most optimal setup should we be dropping Brutalizer AND last Whisper from the build discussion to reduce bloat and simply add in Stark's Fervor instead if we're going to grab a Black Cleaver? 1337 + 1965 = 3302 in gold to put towards those two items (assuming dropping Last Whisper and Brutalizer).

Edit: clarification and quoting from the mechanics thread.
And if you're up against a tank who thinks he's the **** because he's got 200 armor?


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ePiMagnets

Senior Member

02-13-2010

In the event of a tank with 200+ armor, he's taking something around 33% of the damage you put out before your debuffs are applied. It's not that bad considering even at the point of Stark's + black cleaver + runes + masteries he's sitting at 100 less armor, but since he's the tank you shouldn't be focusing him down first to begin with.

Excepting pub games where you can't count on the team to play smart, you should be focusing down carries and casters first followed by support and last the tank, in which case unless you're against Alistar who has arguable the best F-U ultimate in the game that lets him escape a lot (not everything, just a lot of things).


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T0ggle

Member

02-16-2010

Didn't bother to read the complete wall of txt but I did get to play a few games with vulgarity myself as blitzcrank. Even with **** for teams me and him still got positive scores in our lane, I would recommend his build to anyone purely on his performance with it.

This build has Toggles support!


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ePiMagnets

Senior Member

02-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0ggle View Post
Didn't bother to read the complete wall of txt but I did get to play a few games with vulgarity myself as blitzcrank. Even with **** for teams me and him still got positive scores in our lane, I would recommend his build to anyone purely on his performance with it.

This build has Toggles support!
Haha, Thank ya Toggle.


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JonTehKnight

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Senior Member

02-18-2010

Okay, while I don't WANT to say I hate this build, but I hate it. D:

Going for Frozen Mallet so early made me feel like I was sacrificing too much potential damage. Plus the fact you rarely bother with a Brutalizer in your typical build, which I feel is perfect for him. AR Pen + Dmg + CD Reduc ( for long Ult CD) = perfect early item for him

My typical build goes something like:
Long Sword + HP Pot
Berserker Greaves
Brutalizer
Recurve Bow (At this point I may go towards Last Whisper if they're tank heavy or Wit's End if they're caster heavy, otherwise I leave this alone till late game)
BF Sword
Phage
Bloodthirster


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BamSucka

Senior Member

02-18-2010

I think I like the

Long Sword + Hpot
BF Sword
Boots
BF Sword
BF Sword -> Blood Thirster
BF Sword -> Blood Thirster
Last Whisper
Phage

Build more


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ePiMagnets

Senior Member

02-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamSucka View Post
I think I like the

Long Sword + Hpot
BF Sword
Boots
BF Sword
BF Sword -> Blood Thirster
BF Sword -> Blood Thirster
Last Whisper
Phage

Build more
I'm not a big proponent of stacking bloodthirsters, it feels as if you're putting all of your eggs in one basket and if you spend more time dead than alive you're losing stacks on both of those items. Granted 120 flat damage + 30% lifesteal isn't something to scoff at, I would almost recommend picking up another flat damage item (IE perhaps, or Black Cleaver if you skip LW for a Stark's). Especially since in any particular fight you shouldn't be relying on your auto-attack for most of your output and instead rely on your abilities. I'm not arguing they don't gain from the bloodthirsters, but for the item cost I'd almost rather take something that won't require recharging in the event of a death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtJon117 View Post
Okay, while I don't WANT to say I hate this build, but I hate it. D:

Going for Frozen Mallet so early made me feel like I was sacrificing too much potential damage. Plus the fact you rarely bother with a Brutalizer in your typical build, which I feel is perfect for him. AR Pen + Dmg + CD Reduc ( for long Ult CD) = perfect early item for him

My typical build goes something like:
Long Sword + HP Pot
Berserker Greaves
Brutalizer
Recurve Bow (At this point I may go towards Last Whisper if they're tank heavy or Wit's End if they're caster heavy, otherwise I leave this alone till late game)
BF Sword
Phage
Bloodthirster
It does feel like you're losing dps early, but in reality you are not. Brutalizer is good till around mid-game where it really is nothing more than a wasted slot. That being said, it is a good item if you're having an average or poor early game and just need some quick damage to boost yourself, sadly I feel for the price that getting the phage earlier for the purpose of upgrading to Mallet next or after a completed thirster is a better price to pay than an item that loses it's luster well into mid or late game (brutalizer).

I do like your build and honestly have and still use variations of it myself (usually rushing the bloodthirster first over last whisper). The thing to remember is the immediate synergy you get on Last Whisper over Wits End, LW gives you roughly 40% more damage on all of your major attacks (auto, spear shot and heartseeker) whereas Wits is only going to be felt on your auto-attacks. Still a great item, but I feel LW gives a much better return overall.

All in all thanks for the feedback, I'll be taking it into account and probably toying with the builds a bit more.


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Fbsunny

Senior Member

02-18-2010

I agree that in general stacking bloodthirsters is not the best idea, I usually get 1 BT, then get a Black Cleaver next. Very rarely would the game still be going with me having both of those, a brutalizer, boots and still have extra money to spend. If it does I generally get a little survivability (BV or something) or maybe some AS for killing turrets and baron faster.

I wouldn't say that brutalizer is only good mid game, if your enemies (more then just the tank) start getting armor items so you are forced to get a Last Whisper, brutalizer synergizes very well with it. With runes and masteries you have about 40 flat pen.

If you prefer to get stark's and black cleaver instead of last whisper, brutalizer can still be useful. It helps you do more damage faster, until you get all your black cleaver stacks and also helps some on enemies with over 85 armor.


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