Discussion on Effect of Improving Match Maker.

First Riot Post
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GG DraKe

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Senior Member

04-10-2011

Well, surprise, so much rage in one game, seems every second person deserves a ban in 1400 elo. Is this true? I doubt it, but FIX THE BLOODY ELO SYSTEM SO PEOPLE STOP RAGING. It's taking me all my self restraint not to rage along with everyone else at the moment. So please, STOP THE BLOODY FEEDERS ON MY TEAM WHO CLAIM MID AND THEN DIE 4 TIMES.


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GG DraKe

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Senior Member

04-11-2011

Okay. Please Riot. This is ridiculous. 7/19 twitch. HOW. THE. HELL. IN 1450 ELO.


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GG DraKe

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Senior Member

04-11-2011

Lets see, 1450 elo, 5 feeders, 10 games. INTENTIONAL FEEDERS. That's saying something is wrong with the game instead of the people playing it isn't it? Something is making them so angry they refuse to play properly. HOW ABOUT YOU HURRY UP AND FIX MATCH MAKER, BECAUSE BOTH YOU AND I KNOW BANNING DOESN'T WORK


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Flypped

Member

04-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
The carry effect is pretty strong, we've seen this demonstrated a number of times and I bet, if you're a great player in the 1600+ range or even if you're a good player below that, if you start a new character playing in a low ELO, eventually you'll be able to get to or even surpass where you're at now.

Does that mean you won't get a conflux of absolutely terrible players or ones who just can't work together as a team? No, but that's hardly happening every game. If we looked at your W:L ratio I can guarantee we're not going to see 2 wins and 400 losses because you got paired up with 1600 terrible teammates.

The problem we see here, especially with good carry players, is that there is a tendency to focus on individual games. Coming off one or two losses where teammates made a mistake or had a bad game, yet if you look, their overall W:L ratio it's still positive.

Now all this is not to say that MM can't use improvement, and the statistics from the system constantly get reviewed and tweaks have been made, but when you introduce individual stats, it opens up a whole new can of worms that breaks down pretty quickly.
This is a false premise and a bunch of assumptions...

1) The carry effect is not nearly as strong as people make it out to be... LoL is a team game, if any game could be won by picking a strong carry, there would be even more complains than there are now. You are ignoring the fact that if you have a bad team, you could be the best carry in the game but.. There is always an item limit of 6 slots, a mindset to focus you, and no matter how hard you try, your team will lose all of the team fights.. Yes a carry is important, but not nearly as much as good, coordinated teamwork. Plus who wants to play a right-click hero all day? The only "carries" I play are skill based carries such as Corki, Ezreal, all of which rely on a decent tank/team to support them.

2) What's with the ridiculous example of 2 wins and 400 losses.. Of course we will never see that.. That argument is completely flawed... If you want to say something, don't go about exaggerating things to attempt to prove your point.

3) "We won't see that every game"
I beg to differ.... and many other people would too.. This doesn't even require an explanation... It does happen most games and maybe twice every weekend, I can find a well balanced game that was truly a test of skill.

4) If you incorporate APM, wards placed, etc... you can have a better measure of one's skill.. KDR isn't the best method to measure ladder placement, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than the summoner level you are (especially since exp boosts can be BOUGHT). If you look at my minion kills, takedowns, etc.. (APM If you guys had it) I guarantee you it would be above my level 25 average.. However, my W/L is still around 120ish to 110ish... I am not being arrogant, simply honest.. The way that ladder placements are measured at the moment is simply awful... It takes neither teamwork into account or player skill.. The only way to technically be "good" is if every game I played I had a premade of 5.. Arrangeable, but a complete hassle.

5) There is no tendency to focus on the individual game.. I am not saying a 20-5 Xin Zhao for sure played better than a 5-5 Jarvan.. It is all team based and context based.. However, a 0-5-0 Xin Zhao is exponentially more useless than a 0-5-10 Jarvan. Do you see my point? You completely underestimate the issue.. These aren't bad games or mistakes.. These are genuine bad players (Which can't be helped because we were all bad once) that are wrongly matched with better players.. Their overall win/loss might be positive but that doesn't mean jack squat when they don't place any wards, aren't useful to the team, have no assists, can't last hit (And in fact even mess up your ability to do so), constantly getting ganked -> which leads to you dying as you try to help them out, a 40 apm, not calling mia, and lacking COMMON LOGIC which higher level players DEVELOP from EXPERIENCE.

6) One inherent problem in the game is the lack of separate servers... English is a required language on the U.N. as is French.. If it is a universal language in a Global Organization, it is only plausible that in a game like LoL, there should be different servers to be able to play with your country/language.. The language barrier of LoL is more than a problem, its an inherent flaw in the MM system.. How is it possible to have good coordination with your team if you cannot communicate with them? (Rhetorical question.. It isn't)). This isn't a hard issue to fix, but definitely a necessary one, I can't begin to count the number of games we had foreigners who spoke no English screw the game..

It might sound racist but it really isn't.. I am not American and I know how to speak English perfectly fine... it is essentially a worldwide spoken language (Required even in countries such as China)... Bottom line, separate servers for different countries fixes these issues...

7) We understand this isn't a simple thing to fix.. However it needs a fix, not just a simple little tweaking. There are problems in the MM system in LoL which have more recently come to my attention (including leavers), which can be fixed with time. What the staff is currently doing is underplaying the issues, making them to be smaller than it actually is....
HoN has a better MM system, albeit very slow, but at least it is balaced.. 70 percent of the games on HoN are decent, balanced matches.. They have a PSR system, similar to an ELO system, and incorporation of single stats can't be so impossible that they actually crash the whole server.. Even w/o single stats there's a lot the staff can do which they aren't... Surely a lot of ideas would be better than the level system based on wins/losses that is in place right now...

All in All,

Guys I love this game.. its brilliant, its a great take on DotA, one of my favorite games, and I support it full-heartedly.. But honestly, we understand it's a free game, but even free games CANNOT have this issue.. How in the world can you compete with DotA 2 when it comes out if basic Matchmaking algorithms are so flawed there is a 1/10 chance of having a truly balanced MM match??? We as your supporters might seem to cry and whine about these things.. and some of us do, but ultimately we do so because we obviously care about the game.. If we didn't we would just stop playing.. I know for a fact that the whole of Riot team can't all be working on Champions or Skins and there are different teams (Art, Development, etc..) Therefore it is perfectly plausible to have a new skin out before fixing a server problem... But still, if it has gone unfixed for the whole of Season 1, there is an inherent flaw in customer support and satisfaction.. I don't even know if you guys even read these posts we post... We hope for better is all I can say..

P.S. Yea the post is kinda long, Sorry >.< but there was a lot to be said.
P.P.S. I won't even comment on the Ban system.. It fixes nothing... Just awful T-T.


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GG DraKe

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Senior Member

04-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
This is a false premise and a bunch of assumptions...

1) The carry effect is not nearly as strong as people make it out to be... LoL is a team game, if any game could be won by picking a strong carry, there would be even more complains than there are now. You are ignoring the fact that if you have a bad team, you could be the best carry in the game but.. There is always an item limit of 6 slots, a mindset to focus you, and no matter how hard you try, your team will lose all of the team fights.. Yes a carry is important, but not nearly as much as good, coordinated teamwork. Plus who wants to play a right-click hero all day? The only "carries" I play are skill based carries such as Corki, Ezreal, all of which rely on a decent tank/team to support them.

2) What's with the ridiculous example of 2 wins and 400 losses.. Of course we will never see that.. That argument is completely flawed... If you want to say something, don't go about exaggerating things to attempt to prove your point.

3) "We won't see that every game"
I beg to differ.... and many other people would too.. This doesn't even require an explanation... It does happen most games and maybe twice every weekend, I can find a well balanced game that was truly a test of skill.

4) If you incorporate APM, wards placed, etc... you can have a better measure of one's skill.. KDR isn't the best method to measure ladder placement, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than the summoner level you are (especially since exp boosts can be BOUGHT). If you look at my minion kills, takedowns, etc.. (APM If you guys had it) I guarantee you it would be above my level 25 average.. However, my W/L is still around 120ish to 110ish... I am not being arrogant, simply honest.. The way that ladder placements are measured at the moment is simply awful... It takes neither teamwork into account or player skill.. The only way to technically be "good" is if every game I played I had a premade of 5.. Arrangeable, but a complete hassle.

5) There is no tendency to focus on the individual game.. I am not saying a 20-5 Xin Zhao for sure played better than a 5-5 Jarvan.. It is all team based and context based.. However, a 0-5-0 Xin Zhao is exponentially more useless than a 0-5-10 Jarvan. Do you see my point? You completely underestimate the issue.. These aren't bad games or mistakes.. These are genuine bad players (Which can't be helped because we were all bad once) that are wrongly matched with better players.. Their overall win/loss might be positive but that doesn't mean jack squat when they don't place any wards, aren't useful to the team, have no assists, can't last hit (And in fact even mess up your ability to do so), constantly getting ganked -> which leads to you dying as you try to help them out, a 40 apm, not calling mia, and lacking COMMON LOGIC which higher level players DEVELOP from EXPERIENCE.

6) One inherent problem in the game is the lack of separate servers... English is a required language on the U.N. as is French.. If it is a universal language in a Global Organization, it is only plausible that in a game like LoL, there should be different servers to be able to play with your country/language.. The language barrier of LoL is more than a problem, its an inherent flaw in the MM system.. How is it possible to have good coordination with your team if you cannot communicate with them? (Rhetorical question.. It isn't)). This isn't a hard issue to fix, but definitely a necessary one, I can't begin to count the number of games we had foreigners who spoke no English screw the game..

It might sound racist but it really isn't.. I am not American and I know how to speak English perfectly fine... it is essentially a worldwide spoken language (Required even in countries such as China)... Bottom line, separate servers for different countries fixes these issues...

7) We understand this isn't a simple thing to fix.. However it needs a fix, not just a simple little tweaking. There are problems in the MM system in LoL which have more recently come to my attention (including leavers), which can be fixed with time. What the staff is currently doing is underplaying the issues, making them to be smaller than it actually is....
HoN has a better MM system, albeit very slow, but at least it is balaced.. 70 percent of the games on HoN are decent, balanced matches.. They have a PSR system, similar to an ELO system, and incorporation of single stats can't be so impossible that they actually crash the whole server.. Even w/o single stats there's a lot the staff can do which they aren't... Surely a lot of ideas would be better than the level system based on wins/losses that is in place right now...

All in All,

Guys I love this game.. its brilliant, its a great take on DotA, one of my favorite games, and I support it full-heartedly.. But honestly, we understand it's a free game, but even free games CANNOT have this issue.. How in the world can you compete with DotA 2 when it comes out if basic Matchmaking algorithms are so flawed there is a 1/10 chance of having a truly balanced MM match??? We as your supporters might seem to cry and whine about these things.. and some of us do, but ultimately we do so because we obviously care about the game.. If we didn't we would just stop playing.. I know for a fact that the whole of Riot team can't all be working on Champions or Skins and there are different teams (Art, Development, etc..) Therefore it is perfectly plausible to have a new skin out before fixing a server problem... But still, if it has gone unfixed for the whole of Season 1, there is an inherent flaw in customer support and satisfaction.. I don't even know if you guys even read these posts we post... We hope for better is all I can say..

P.S. Yea the post is kinda long, Sorry >.< but there was a lot to be said.
P.P.S. I won't even comment on the Ban system.. It fixes nothing... Just awful T-T.
Best post I've seen for a LONG time, I definitely agree with almost all your points and you've outlined all the issues with match maker at the moment. Ban system really doesn't work, I get more ragers in 1450 elo now than at any other time even with recent bans. People don't get mad because they're inherently angry. They get mad because they people they play with are just plain bad. It's not the bad player's fault however, match maker just needs to match up better.


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Addy The Great

Junior Member

04-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by xdr4kex View Post
It should end because the players are harder to play against, not because 2 players on your team are 0/15 and only one player on the other team is 0/15.
Hi


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Flypped

Member

04-13-2011

Bump in hopes of acknowledgement of the flawed MM system and acknowledgement of working on it..


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True War Wizard

Senior Member

04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
This is a false premise and a bunch of assumptions...

1) The carry effect is not nearly as strong as people make it out to be... LoL is a team game, if any game could be won by picking a strong carry, there would be even more complains than there are now. You are ignoring the fact that if you have a bad team, you could be the best carry in the game but.. There is always an item limit of 6 slots, a mindset to focus you, and no matter how hard you try, your team will lose all of the team fights.. Yes a carry is important, but not nearly as much as good, coordinated teamwork. Plus who wants to play a right-click hero all day? The only "carries" I play are skill based carries such as Corki, Ezreal, all of which rely on a decent tank/team to support them.

2) What's with the ridiculous example of 2 wins and 400 losses.. Of course we will never see that.. That argument is completely flawed... If you want to say something, don't go about exaggerating things to attempt to prove your point.

3) "We won't see that every game"
I beg to differ.... and many other people would too.. This doesn't even require an explanation... It does happen most games and maybe twice every weekend, I can find a well balanced game that was truly a test of skill.

4) If you incorporate APM, wards placed, etc... you can have a better measure of one's skill.. KDR isn't the best method to measure ladder placement, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than the summoner level you are (especially since exp boosts can be BOUGHT). If you look at my minion kills, takedowns, etc.. (APM If you guys had it) I guarantee you it would be above my level 25 average.. However, my W/L is still around 120ish to 110ish... I am not being arrogant, simply honest.. The way that ladder placements are measured at the moment is simply awful... It takes neither teamwork into account or player skill.. The only way to technically be "good" is if every game I played I had a premade of 5.. Arrangeable, but a complete hassle.

5) There is no tendency to focus on the individual game.. I am not saying a 20-5 Xin Zhao for sure played better than a 5-5 Jarvan.. It is all team based and context based.. However, a 0-5-0 Xin Zhao is exponentially more useless than a 0-5-10 Jarvan. Do you see my point? You completely underestimate the issue.. These aren't bad games or mistakes.. These are genuine bad players (Which can't be helped because we were all bad once) that are wrongly matched with better players.. Their overall win/loss might be positive but that doesn't mean jack squat when they don't place any wards, aren't useful to the team, have no assists, can't last hit (And in fact even mess up your ability to do so), constantly getting ganked -> which leads to you dying as you try to help them out, a 40 apm, not calling mia, and lacking COMMON LOGIC which higher level players DEVELOP from EXPERIENCE.

6) One inherent problem in the game is the lack of separate servers... English is a required language on the U.N. as is French.. If it is a universal language in a Global Organization, it is only plausible that in a game like LoL, there should be different servers to be able to play with your country/language.. The language barrier of LoL is more than a problem, its an inherent flaw in the MM system.. How is it possible to have good coordination with your team if you cannot communicate with them? (Rhetorical question.. It isn't)). This isn't a hard issue to fix, but definitely a necessary one, I can't begin to count the number of games we had foreigners who spoke no English screw the game..

It might sound racist but it really isn't.. I am not American and I know how to speak English perfectly fine... it is essentially a worldwide spoken language (Required even in countries such as China)... Bottom line, separate servers for different countries fixes these issues...

7) We understand this isn't a simple thing to fix.. However it needs a fix, not just a simple little tweaking. There are problems in the MM system in LoL which have more recently come to my attention (including leavers), which can be fixed with time. What the staff is currently doing is underplaying the issues, making them to be smaller than it actually is....
HoN has a better MM system, albeit very slow, but at least it is balaced.. 70 percent of the games on HoN are decent, balanced matches.. They have a PSR system, similar to an ELO system, and incorporation of single stats can't be so impossible that they actually crash the whole server.. Even w/o single stats there's a lot the staff can do which they aren't... Surely a lot of ideas would be better than the level system based on wins/losses that is in place right now...

All in All,

Guys I love this game.. its brilliant, its a great take on DotA, one of my favorite games, and I support it full-heartedly.. But honestly, we understand it's a free game, but even free games CANNOT have this issue.. How in the world can you compete with DotA 2 when it comes out if basic Matchmaking algorithms are so flawed there is a 1/10 chance of having a truly balanced MM match??? We as your supporters might seem to cry and whine about these things.. and some of us do, but ultimately we do so because we obviously care about the game.. If we didn't we would just stop playing.. I know for a fact that the whole of Riot team can't all be working on Champions or Skins and there are different teams (Art, Development, etc..) Therefore it is perfectly plausible to have a new skin out before fixing a server problem... But still, if it has gone unfixed for the whole of Season 1, there is an inherent flaw in customer support and satisfaction.. I don't even know if you guys even read these posts we post... We hope for better is all I can say..

P.S. Yea the post is kinda long, Sorry >.< but there was a lot to be said.
P.P.S. I won't even comment on the Ban system.. It fixes nothing... Just awful T-T.
Best idea I have seen so far.
Reds please take a look at this post.
It contains all my gripes in a nicely formed structure.
thank you


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Xenophobed

Senior Member

04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
This is a false premise and a bunch of assumptions...

1) The carry effect is not nearly as strong as people make it out to be... LoL is a team game, if any game could be won by picking a strong carry, there would be even more complains than there are now. You are ignoring the fact that if you have a bad team, you could be the best carry in the game but.. There is always an item limit of 6 slots, a mindset to focus you, and no matter how hard you try, your team will lose all of the team fights.. Yes a carry is important, but not nearly as much as good, coordinated teamwork. Plus who wants to play a right-click hero all day? The only "carries" I play are skill based carries such as Corki, Ezreal, all of which rely on a decent tank/team to support them.

2) What's with the ridiculous example of 2 wins and 400 losses.. Of course we will never see that.. That argument is completely flawed... If you want to say something, don't go about exaggerating things to attempt to prove your point.

3) "We won't see that every game"
I beg to differ.... and many other people would too.. This doesn't even require an explanation... It does happen most games and maybe twice every weekend, I can find a well balanced game that was truly a test of skill.

4) If you incorporate APM, wards placed, etc... you can have a better measure of one's skill.. KDR isn't the best method to measure ladder placement, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than the summoner level you are (especially since exp boosts can be BOUGHT). If you look at my minion kills, takedowns, etc.. (APM If you guys had it) I guarantee you it would be above my level 25 average.. However, my W/L is still around 120ish to 110ish... I am not being arrogant, simply honest.. The way that ladder placements are measured at the moment is simply awful... It takes neither teamwork into account or player skill.. The only way to technically be "good" is if every game I played I had a premade of 5.. Arrangeable, but a complete hassle.

5) There is no tendency to focus on the individual game.. I am not saying a 20-5 Xin Zhao for sure played better than a 5-5 Jarvan.. It is all team based and context based.. However, a 0-5-0 Xin Zhao is exponentially more useless than a 0-5-10 Jarvan. Do you see my point? You completely underestimate the issue.. These aren't bad games or mistakes.. These are genuine bad players (Which can't be helped because we were all bad once) that are wrongly matched with better players.. Their overall win/loss might be positive but that doesn't mean jack squat when they don't place any wards, aren't useful to the team, have no assists, can't last hit (And in fact even mess up your ability to do so), constantly getting ganked -> which leads to you dying as you try to help them out, a 40 apm, not calling mia, and lacking COMMON LOGIC which higher level players DEVELOP from EXPERIENCE.

6) One inherent problem in the game is the lack of separate servers... English is a required language on the U.N. as is French.. If it is a universal language in a Global Organization, it is only plausible that in a game like LoL, there should be different servers to be able to play with your country/language.. The language barrier of LoL is more than a problem, its an inherent flaw in the MM system.. How is it possible to have good coordination with your team if you cannot communicate with them? (Rhetorical question.. It isn't)). This isn't a hard issue to fix, but definitely a necessary one, I can't begin to count the number of games we had foreigners who spoke no English screw the game..

It might sound racist but it really isn't.. I am not American and I know how to speak English perfectly fine... it is essentially a worldwide spoken language (Required even in countries such as China)... Bottom line, separate servers for different countries fixes these issues...

7) We understand this isn't a simple thing to fix.. However it needs a fix, not just a simple little tweaking. There are problems in the MM system in LoL which have more recently come to my attention (including leavers), which can be fixed with time. What the staff is currently doing is underplaying the issues, making them to be smaller than it actually is....
HoN has a better MM system, albeit very slow, but at least it is balaced.. 70 percent of the games on HoN are decent, balanced matches.. They have a PSR system, similar to an ELO system, and incorporation of single stats can't be so impossible that they actually crash the whole server.. Even w/o single stats there's a lot the staff can do which they aren't... Surely a lot of ideas would be better than the level system based on wins/losses that is in place right now...

All in All,

Guys I love this game.. its brilliant, its a great take on DotA, one of my favorite games, and I support it full-heartedly.. But honestly, we understand it's a free game, but even free games CANNOT have this issue.. How in the world can you compete with DotA 2 when it comes out if basic Matchmaking algorithms are so flawed there is a 1/10 chance of having a truly balanced MM match??? We as your supporters might seem to cry and whine about these things.. and some of us do, but ultimately we do so because we obviously care about the game.. If we didn't we would just stop playing.. I know for a fact that the whole of Riot team can't all be working on Champions or Skins and there are different teams (Art, Development, etc..) Therefore it is perfectly plausible to have a new skin out before fixing a server problem... But still, if it has gone unfixed for the whole of Season 1, there is an inherent flaw in customer support and satisfaction.. I don't even know if you guys even read these posts we post... We hope for better is all I can say..

P.S. Yea the post is kinda long, Sorry >.< but there was a lot to be said.
P.P.S. I won't even comment on the Ban system.. It fixes nothing... Just awful T-T.
And god said: FURITY JUST GOT OWNED. =)


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GG DraKe

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-14-2011

I don't get it xenophobed