I'd really like a Red post. AD sustainability vs AP

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Fendral

Senior Member

03-10-2011

The popularity and prolificacy of lifesteal items seems to be increasing. I'm not a human statistics engine, but it seems as of late that increasing numbers of summoners are purchasing Wriggles Lantern, and other such lifestealing items; they’re so popular that even the Execs calling got an article in the JoJ! This has been causing me a bit of a headache. Wriggles is giving ranged AD carries, especially ones with on-hit abilities a level of sustainability I can't reasonably defeat as most mage characters. Mages that do sustained and not burst damage suffer more heavily. Some such mages are Morgana, Swain, Heimerdinger, Karthus, Kennen, and I suppose Zilean. To a lesser degree this is also annoying for Lux, Cassiopeia, and Ryze.
The amount of available mana I tend to have isn't enough to wear an enemy Champion down to a killable range as soon as they have Wriggles and play carefully; I cannot trade blows with them.

Is this just QQing? Do I need to learn how to be better? No, it isn't just whiney-ness, but I could always be better. My issue here is that I have a limited mana pool, especially at earlier levels. Once itemization kicks in the problem is lessened, but still persists. Mage champion cooldowns are almost always far longer than any AD champions Auto attack and sometimes their abilities. Even though mages are supposed to have highly damaging abilities, you can’t play the ***-for-tat game, because my tat gets nullified by future lifesteal after their ***. All they have to do is play safe, last hit from afar, or use on-hit abilities, and then regain their life. If I could regain my mana with on-hit spells I wouldn't have a problem, but that isn't an option.

Does anyone else find Ezreal healing for 150 every mystic shot annoying? Or MF double-ups giving her a nice chunk of health? Perhaps it's just my carry-over play style from DOTA where I found it far harder to sustain in lane against a mage because such lifesteal wasn't usually a factor, but I really believe this to be a growing issue. Why does the Wriggle proc do physical damage still anyway? Haven't jungle monsters had their magic resistances balanced? Or is that just too hard a hit to junglers and it's okay that Carries can stay in lane for longer than a mage reasonably will?


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ohHaiChewie

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Theres much more health/Armor/MR on AP items as opposed to dps items.
Caster get more survivability without having to specifically build towards it.
Also, catalyst is a god-send for casters.
If AD characters have wiggles for sustainability, casters have catalyst.


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Minrog

Senior Member

03-10-2011

It would be cool for AD champions to get an item like Rod of Ages. Like:

1000 hit points
60 Attack Damage

Then you build 2 of those + Youmou's + Guardian Angel + Banshee's Veil + Mercury Treads. Screw lifesteal imo.


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Inspektah Deck

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Wish I had an item that built out of Pickaxe and Giant's Belt or Catalyst.


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Skwid1g

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Is it annoying? Yes.

Is it unbeatable/imbalanced? No.


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Tyroie

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendral View Post
If I could regain my mana with on-hit spells I wouldn't have a problem, but that isn't an option.
But there are other ways to regain mana.

Veigar and Urgot are the only mages I like to play (well, Urgot plays similarly to a mage anyway), but this is a big reason I take a Philosopher's Stone with them. The massive regens help me combat people who recover health (and rock people who don't), and it pays for itself, so I can sell it late game when I don't care about the health regen anymore.

The trick to taking advantage of high regen is to start off in a "super safe and passive" mode, letting your bars refill over time, then when you're ready, harass HARD.

It is very important NOT to harass someone who can recover health until you are ready to harass them HARD. Either cast at every cooldown, or don't cast at all. Do not try to harass a full-health enemy when your minions are pushed up to their tower. Do not try to harass unless your spells hit hard enough AND you have enough mana to get them low. Hold on to a ward, then when you're about to start harassing, use it in their bush so they can't hide in it.

If you're successful, your regens will help solidify your advantage (so they can't simply heal up and take the lane again). You just sit in the lane gaining gold and exp, maybe hit the tower a bit, and when they come back, your health and mana will be quickly on their way back to full, ready for a repeat performance.

But if your harass failed, and they heal up, your mana is wasted. Fortunately, your health and mana regen allow you to stay in the lane, gaining gold and exp, until you are ready to try again - instead of being stuck at a disadvantage until you decide to go back to shop.

Of course, a Tear or a Chalice are even better for your mana, but that's mainly if you're playing someone like Karthus or Swain, IMO, who can either stay at a safe range to avoid attacks, or can heal themselves.

In any case, yeah - you sort of wrote the solution to your problem in your own message, in a vague way.


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ÂșcÂș

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minrog View Post
It would be cool for AD champions to get an item like Rod of Ages. Like:

1000 hit points
60 Attack Damage

Then you build 2 of those + Youmou's + Guardian Angel + Banshee's Veil + Mercury Treads. Screw lifesteal imo.
1K hitpoints..... New OP Build. 5 of those and 1 Atmas 250AD +5k HP + 2% of your probably around 7k HP into AD = a whopping 140 more. So 390 AD + Base AD + 7K HP. Mundo, you can now be even scarier.


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Fendral

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroie View Post
Veigar and Urgot are the only mages I like to play (well, Urgot plays similarly to a mage anyway), but this is a big reason I take a Philosopher's Stone with them. The massive regens help me combat people who recover health (and rock people who don't), and it pays for itself, so I can sell it late game when I don't care about the health regen anymore.

The trick to taking advantage of high regen is to start off in a "super safe and passive" mode, letting your bars refill over time, then when you're ready, harass HARD.
I agree with what you're saying, which is why Casters usually trump Melees. However, this tactic doesn't work well against ranged carries. There are only a few casters that can harass from a safe distance, and Ryze probably is one of them, without receiving a blow in return. A ranged AD carry with Wriggles will have the upper hand because of a few reasons:
1) They often exhaust less resources than a Mage must. Their Autoattack clears waves, and they often have a farming ability that is low cost. This means that the mana that one is forced to expend on a champion to harass them cannot be used to attain CS. Well just last hit, right? Most mages have a lower range than ranged AD carries which often leaves them more vulnerable.
2) Mages, even if they get spell vamp, must expend a finite resource (mana) in order to heal. Autoattacks are forever, and with Wriggle procs they can heal quite effectively.
3) Every ranged carry has a move that punishes a champion for closing on them and can get them away. Think about it, they all do. Yes, Ashe only has volley, MF only has MS and Make it Rain, and worse of all Kog'Maw only has Void ooze and BAB. A ranged AD carry can often strike from a great distance at an approaching enemy champion. Some are skill shots, yes, but they are often very quick, far quicker than most mage skill shots, I'd say (just not Kennen's Q.)
4) Spells with CC often have long CD's. By the time they are up again ( for ex: Veigar EvH, Karth Wall, Morgana Snare) a carry can heal themselves for a good portion if not all the damage done unless they were quite reckless.

It's not insurmountable, true, but I find it really annoying. If carries can have sustainability in such a fashion why is it suddenly wrong for casters to have it? I think a WoTA can be handy, but is it a must? Usually not, you need a heavy AP team. Even then, Starks > WoTA.