Sivir Chalice Vs. Philosophers Stone

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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

02-08-2010

I still never need chalice and I still never need to leave my lane and I still never get beaten. 900 gold is alot when as soon as you get a recurve you get basically unlimited cash. If you skip the chalice and go straight for vamp scepter > Recurve > Starks your ricochets will be hitting your opponent so fast they won't be able to farm anything. If you are soloing mid you are leveling up fast enough that your mana wont run out if you make your occasional trip to town to pick up and item like recurve. All in all it is a useless item for the mana regen. If you want the magic resist buy something else that's cheaper.

Just an example I was playing Nidalee solo mid Vs a sivir who went for chalice first. instead of leveling ricochet and spell shield they went with boomerang and everytime they threw it I'd either dodge it or I like to pump primal surge early so I let it hit me and I just heal. Now you are useless you aren't farming as much as you could be and you are getting out harassed by your opponent and once your opponent hits lvl 6 you can't get close to your mobs because she is going to shred your face with her claws and can do 75% of your life in 2 seconds. even if you pop heal Nidalee goes back heals and then finishes you... You have now put yourself in a lose/lose situation because you didnt go with recurve and you got your silly useless chalice instead.

Edit: I also forgot to tell you that I sent sivir back to town 3 times just to heal because I bought a recurve bow plus my attack speed buff I could take whatever sivir threw at me and I could outdamage her easily.


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SaiBot

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Chalice is the right choice.

You don't need regen since you have lifesteal. And HP regen is too slow to really make the difference.

Good Sivir also run Tele/Rally which both help you heal.

Mana regen will help you throughout all the game and MR is a plus value.

If the game gets really late, I sell chalice and buy frozen heart to even more support the team.


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Slide

Senior Member

02-08-2010

100% Chalice

You need a substantial amount of mana early and mid game to play Sivir properly. Philosophers stone just doesnt cut it. Anyone who tells you it is enough by itself, does not play Sivir properly.

You CERTAINLY dont need the gold from philo stone, Sivir is the best farmer in the game.

As to health Regen, it takes parctice, but you can suffice just fine with 2 hp pots, rally and teleport untill you can afford your chalice + scepter. More often then not, I dont even need the teleport for the fountain refill. I use it right after I buy the chalice and scepter (sometimes boots if Ive been farming well or got a kill) to get back to the lane without missing a creep death.

Lastly Id have to say ignore PatMcGroyne. I believe he plays against bad Sivirs or at a low ELO. Sivir should NEVER had a problem with nidalee early game. ESPCEIALLY with a chalice (as her abilities aside from autoattacks all do magic damage) and her skill shot is easy mana for you with spellshield. The key of course is if your facing someone whos good at dodging BB, dont throw it at them. Ignore the enemy hero, concentrate on the creep wave and killing the tower. I have NEVER been beat in mid by Nidalee. Shes a great hero, but Sivir has the tools to beat her at the mid game without much difficulty. Your not going to kill her a bunch (hell Sivir never does unless your playing against noobs) but you shouldnt die and you should push the tower no problem.

Lastly, Sivir was just in rotation 2 or 3 weeks ago and a LOT of good Sivir information was posted. I suggest taking a look.

Lastly, for anyone looking at tier lists thinking "I want to play Sivir cause shes god tier!!" please realise she is god tier for one specific build and playstyle which requires teamwork. Sivir is NOT a carry and any true carry will rip you to pieces. Please do not look at her farming ability and think "I can haz uberz items!11!!!" you can, but it wont work as well as you think. You can always stomp newbs, but against decent competition, Sivirs role is SUPPORT carry. If you dont want to play a support character, Sivir isnt for you.

EDIT: Well aware I started the last 3 scentences with lastly. Deal with it.


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OmniOblivion

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodie Assassin View Post
Which should I choose and why? Chalice lets me spam more, but Philosopher's lets me stay in the lane longer. And also gives me gold over time. Any inputs here?
If you make use of Spell Shield, then Philosopher's Stone would be better. Your Spell Shield is all the Magic Block you need.


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SaiBot

Senior Member

02-08-2010

^^ QUICKSLIDE said what's true.

Nidalee is a better 1v1 than Sivir tho. If both teams play well. I don't think you'll be able to push the tower. It really depends everygame. If your enemy leave mid to gank, it's sure you'll have it, but your often in the opposite position where you push better and you can leave your lane.

I often tend to help another lane or do dragon when you are able to push your creeps to enemy tower at lvl 6-8.


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Slide

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObLiViOn2011 View Post
If you make use of Spell Shield, then Philosopher's Stone would be better. Your Spell Shield is all the Magic Block you need.
Wrong.

Spellshield, unfortunately, has a long cooldown (28 seconds at level 1). Any decent player you play against is going to hit you with magic more then your spellshield is up. Thats just simple math. Here the magic resist helps. Youd be a fool to think you can spellshield everything that comes your way.

Secondly, and this is the important part, the part that makes chalice so great on Sivir. You need 75 mana to spellshield. If your using BB, and putting ricochet on when your supposed to, you WILL run out of mana. Chalice not only gives you great regen, the passive is made for people who run on low mana. You are not a burster that needs to keep a large pool. Your "spells" are sustained damage. Doubling your mana regen when you are out is so incredibly key to a well played Sivir I could never imagine playing without it. It makes sure you always have 75 mana to cast your spellshield when you need it.

I must say though, I run clarity runes (mana regen/5 per level). They combo fantastically with chalice. Remember, chalices passive doubles ALL your mana regen when your at 0, not just the mana regen from chalice.

Of course, when mid game roles around, chalice outperforms the stone a hundred fold. Mid game you have decent passive mana regen, a bunch from chalice and another nice addition from clarity runes. This allows you to constantly spam all your skills. Since Sivir shines the most mid game (the point where, due to her phenominal farming abilities, she has a couple uber items while the enemy team doesnt) this gives Sivir the best output. You must NEVER undrestimate what BB and ricochet in combination do for pushing. They require a lot of mana on a long push and Chalice is the only thing that is going to do it for you short of spending a lot of gold on things you dont need.

The last thing I want to mention is, Philo Stone isnt bad. It is a great item for new players or players who are too casual to play amazingly. It certainly does work on Sivir and is definately EASIER(due to the health regen and the passive gold). However, if your playing to win, and want whats most EFFECTIVE, chalice is the way to go.

So:

Philo Stone: Easier, Less Effcetive (easier as it gives health regen and passive gold, less effectove because it does not give enough mana and you do need SOME sort of magic resist)

Chalice: More Difficult, More effective (requires good health management early game untill you get scepter/emblem/starks hence its more difficult, but FAR more effective as it gives you all the mana you need and also gives you enough magic resist that you can normally forgo getting any more untill very late game).


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iDeck

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Senior Member

02-08-2010

I generally get both if I can get them under 10 mins which I normally always do unless it's a pro Trist/TF. The Phil pays for itself and then you sell it to get BFS. Early game with that much mana regen there isn't really much they can do but sit back and try to dodge boomerangs. You starve their carry and push their towers hard.


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Slide

Senior Member

02-08-2010

You certainly dont need both. Chalice is certainly enough mana regen.

The point that philo stone pays for itself (it shouldnt, ever, game should be long over before philo stone pays for itself) is pointless on the best farmer in the game. Gold is NOT one of Sivirs problems. With enough mana, by level 5-6 I can EASILLY get every last hit in a wave with BB and ricochet.

The only other thing that getting both would do is push back when you get your stakrs.

Ive said it a good hundred times, but the most powerful thing that Sivir can do, what Sivir WINS GAMES with, is starks at level 11 (with chalice and boots of course). Starks + level 2 Ult + rally (not as much as before but still good) + inxcredible pushing power with BB and ricochet (fueled with chalice of course) and a 5 man push WINS GAMES.

Thats your goal for "God Tier" Sivir. 15 minutes in, level 11, chalice, boots, starks. Get your team together in mid (first tower is already down from you) and push right to the inhib.

Adding anyting else to the build pushes back stakrs. Starks, like all aura items is more powerful the earlier you build it. If its early enough, the enemy team will NOT be able to stop your push. Ive done it countless times and I am 100% certain that meki + 2 pots to chalice to boots to starks for a 5 man push with you at 11 and 2 levels of your ult is by far and above the most powerful Sivir strat if not the most powerful pushing strat in the entire game.


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NouvelleVoix

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Member

02-08-2010

Yes to pretty much everything Quickslide says. Philo stone is nice... but early game, BB is amazing for just about everything you'll need in early game, and you need a lot of mana regen to spam it. (Srsly people, if the enemy champions are dodging your boomerang, stop targeting them and start targeting the minions; they will then either have to shut you down (and run the risk of getting some BBs to the face) or suck it up and attempt to counter by killing your minions faster than you can kill theirs (which is nigh impossible for the vast majority of champions). Later on, of course, Ricochet is much more important than BB (because who stacks AP on Sivir, honestly?)... And since this is getting off-topic, I'm going to simplify it: SS is nice, but only useful every so often, and if you can somehow survive off 125 mana every 30-20 seconds, you are probably doing something wrong.


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Slide

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by NouvelleVoix View Post
Yes to pretty much everything Quickslide says. Philo stone is nice... but early game, BB is amazing for just about everything you'll need in early game, and you need a lot of mana regen to spam it. (Srsly people, if the enemy champions are dodging your boomerang, stop targeting them and start targeting the minions; they will then either have to shut you down (and run the risk of getting some BBs to the face) or suck it up and attempt to counter by killing your minions faster than you can kill theirs (which is nigh impossible for the vast majority of champions). Later on, of course, Ricochet is much more important than BB (because who stacks AP on Sivir, honestly?)... And since this is getting off-topic, I'm going to simplify it: SS is nice, but only useful every so often, and if you can somehow survive off 75 mana every 30-20 seconds, you are probably doing something wrong.
Merci mon bon home!


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