Im tired of tanky dps teams.

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Danceblaster

Senior Member

02-23-2011

For an argument using raw mathematics that someone will criticize because "you can't just look at the numbers in the abstract without knowing the whole picture", take a look:

For 2610 gold, I can get a sunfire cape that gives me 450 HP and 45 armor. Let's even ignore the extra damage, for the moment. (Edited.)

What does the DPS do to counter this?

Option 1: Black Clever: 3065 gold, +55 damage, 30% attack speed, and -15 armor per swing. Note that this item effectively counters the sunfire cape's armor after 3 swings, but requires 8-9 swings from you to drop off the extra HP.

Option 2: Last Whisper: 2290 gold, 40 attack damage, 40% armor pen. Even with 100% armor pen, you're going to need to get over 11 hits off to make your item worthwhile. The enemy's armor will likely increase this.

Here's the kicker: sunfire cape gives the wearer 40 damage per second to everything around them. That's not too shabby compared to the damage outputs of these other items. If you're attack speed is hovering around 1-1.2 as a DPS champ, then the sunfire cape gives almost as much extra raw damage as your last whisper!

So, you essentially have to look at the DPS output of the opponents and your HP bar, and ask yourself whether or not you can squirt out extra 8+ attacks before they kill you. But wait, even if you can get off the 8 or so attacks you need to "counter" their sunfire cape before you die, the sad reality is that... you're now dead, and they aren't. In situations where your team has poor CC, it might not even be possible for you to do *that*, as they will just "focus the carry" and burn you down.

The problem partially rests on the fact that the DPS toon has to kite and avoid CC to make use of his item, while the tank character gets to have his bonuses no matter what he's doing, even if it's just sitting there in a bush AFK.


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Narvuntien

Senior Member

02-23-2011

This team: Pantheon, Twitch, Shaco, Karthus, Swain

Beat this team: Mundo, Singed, Rammus, Xin, Sona

how can it be over powered? The team that played better still won.

I would say having Tank + Tanky DPS is really really tough but having a whole team it isn't so bad.

In this case with two global ulti's and two stealth champs, ample CC we destroyed their no teamwork run in two at a time methods. It did however take until their death times were long enough that we could aced them for us to win. They pushed much better than we did... game went for 70 min's


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Fishturd

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narvuntien View Post
This team: Pantheon, Twitch, Shaco, Karthus, Swain

Beat this team: Mundo, Singed, Rammus, Xin, Sona

how can it be over powered? The team that played better still won.

I would say having Tank + Tanky DPS is really really tough but having a whole team it isn't so bad.

In this case with two global ulti's and two stealth champs, ample CC we destroyed their no teamwork run in two at a time methods. It did however take until their death times were long enough that we could aced them for us to win. They pushed much better than we did... game went for 70 min's

It is pretty bad because they scale super well, not only that but zliean make up for their weakness. Lucky for me I don't face to many tanky teams that understand this yet.


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Fishturd

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvin View Post
For an argument using raw mathematics that someone will criticize because "you can't just look at the numbers in the abstract without knowing the whole picture", take a look:

For 2610 gold, I can get a sunfire cape that gives me 450 HP and 45 armor. Let's even ignore the extra damage, for the moment. (Edited.)

What does the DPS do to counter this?

Option 1: Black Clever: 3065 gold, +55 damage, 30% attack speed, and -15 armor per swing. Note that this item effectively counters the sunfire cape's armor after 3 swings, but requires 8-9 swings from you to drop off the extra HP.

Option 2: Last Whisper: 2290 gold, 40 attack damage, 40% armor pen. Even with 100% armor pen, you're going to need to get over 11 hits off to make your item worthwhile. The enemy's armor will likely increase this.

Here's the kicker: sunfire cape gives the wearer 40 damage per second to everything around them. That's not too shabby compared to the damage outputs of these other items. If you're attack speed is hovering around 1-1.2 as a DPS champ, then the sunfire cape gives almost as much extra raw damage as your last whisper!

So, you essentially have to look at the DPS output of the opponents and your HP bar, and ask yourself whether or not you can squirt out extra 8+ attacks before they kill you. But wait, even if you can get off the 8 or so attacks you need to "counter" their sunfire cape before you die, the sad reality is that... you're now dead, and they aren't. In situations where your team has poor CC, it might not even be possible for you to do *that*, as they will just "focus the carry" and burn you down.

The problem partially rests on the fact that the DPS toon has to kite and avoid CC to make use of his item, while the tank character gets to have his bonuses no matter what he's doing, even if it's just sitting there in a bush AFK.


BINGO. Someone worded it better than I did.


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TK464

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvin View Post
For an argument using raw mathematics that someone will criticize because "you can't just look at the numbers in the abstract without knowing the whole picture", take a look:

For 2610 gold, I can get a sunfire cape that gives me 450 HP and 45 armor. Let's even ignore the extra damage, for the moment. (Edited.)

What does the DPS do to counter this?

Option 1: Black Clever: 3065 gold, +55 damage, 30% attack speed, and -15 armor per swing. Note that this item effectively counters the sunfire cape's armor after 3 swings, but requires 8-9 swings from you to drop off the extra HP.

Option 2: Last Whisper: 2290 gold, 40 attack damage, 40% armor pen. Even with 100% armor pen, you're going to need to get over 11 hits off to make your item worthwhile. The enemy's armor will likely increase this.

Here's the kicker: sunfire cape gives the wearer 40 damage per second to everything around them. That's not too shabby compared to the damage outputs of these other items. If you're attack speed is hovering around 1-1.2 as a DPS champ, then the sunfire cape gives almost as much extra raw damage as your last whisper!

So, you essentially have to look at the DPS output of the opponents and your HP bar, and ask yourself whether or not you can squirt out extra 8+ attacks before they kill you. But wait, even if you can get off the 8 or so attacks you need to "counter" their sunfire cape before you die, the sad reality is that... you're now dead, and they aren't. In situations where your team has poor CC, it might not even be possible for you to do *that*, as they will just "focus the carry" and burn you down.

The problem partially rests on the fact that the DPS toon has to kite and avoid CC to make use of his item, while the tank character gets to have his bonuses no matter what he's doing, even if it's just sitting there in a bush AFK.
Thank you for pointing this out. I'm hesitant to say now that the problem is champions, but rather items. The other day I was playing Kennen and decided to have some fun, Rylais, FoN, Sunfire as my core build. And it worked stupidly good, winning fights was as easy as ERW. I couldn't be focused down fast and I couldn't be ignored.


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Dimensionist

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvin View Post
For an argument using raw mathematics that someone will criticize because "you can't just look at the numbers in the abstract without knowing the whole picture", take a look:

For 2610 gold, I can get a sunfire cape that gives me 450 HP and 45 armor. Let's even ignore the extra damage.

What does the DPS do to counter this?

Option 1: Black Clever: 3065 gold, +55 damage, 30% attack speed, and -15 armor per swing. Note that this item effectively counters the sunfire cape's armor after 3 swings, but requires 8-9 swings from you to drop off the extra HP.

Option 2: Last Whisper: 2290 gold, 40 attack damage, 40% armor pen. Even with 100% armor pen, you're going to need to get over 11 hits off to make your item worthwhile. The enemy's armor will likely increase this.

Here's the kicker: sunfire cape gives the wearer 40 damage per second to everything around them. That's not too shabby compared to the damage outputs of these other items. If you're attack speed is hovering around 1-1.2 as a DPS champ, then the sunfire cape gives almost as much extra raw damage as your last whisper!

So, you essentially have to look at the DPS output of the opponents and your HP bar, and ask yourself whether or not you can squirt out extra 8+ attacks before they kill you. But wait, even if you can get off the 8 or so attacks you need to "counter" their sunfire cape before you die, the sad reality is that... you're now dead, and they aren't. In situations where your team has poor CC, it might not even be possible for you to do *that*, as they will just "focus the carry" and burn you down.

The problem partially rests on the fact that the DPS toon has to kite and avoid CC to make use of his item, while the tank character gets to have his bonuses no matter what he's doing, even if it's just sitting there in a bush AFK.
While the tanky DPS issue can be debated to a certain extent your math doesn't take into account effective scaling.

You give someone a sunfire cape and with most champions it's getting a linear bonus.

The 40 damage is just damage as is the HP and armor. For champions like Rammus he'll get some AD and vlad will get some AP etc.

Now give a black cleaver to say Ashe, her auto attacks will hit harder but you also have to factor in how it scales with her other abilities, like Volley. So now Volley will hit harder and so will her auto attacks. Wait her frost shot will fire at a faster rate allowing the enemy champion to be perma slowed easier.

TLDR: Most DPS champions get added bonuses than just their auto attacks with AD items while most tanks/tanky DPS won't at all or will be a much smaller impact.


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HeraldofNurgle

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishturd View Post
This is getting really boring facing them alot. The risk vs reward factor with champions really is out of wack.



Why play glass cannons when beefy champions out shine them. If riot really wants this game to be a esport or whatever they need to look at this issue.
0/10, try harder troll.


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Hotdogs

Senior Member

02-23-2011

attack scaling is better
you can get multiplicative bonuses from ad, as, crit, crit damage, penetration
for defense you can only get multiplicative bonuses from hp and defense or mr
sunfire is a bad example because its a crappy tank item, its more like a hybrid tank/offense item

maybe you should compare bloodrazer instead of black cleaver
+30 Attack Damage
+40% Attack Speed
+25 Armor
UNIQUE Passive: On hit, deals Magic Damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum Health.

say you hit a tank with 4000 hp
you deal 160 magic damage + 40 physical damage
in like 2 or 3 hits you will tear through that sunfire cape bonus
if you had a high attack speed that would take under a second
also you get more than half of the armor effect of the sunfire

i know its a bad comparison but the point is you should not underestimate dps items


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Fishturd

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeraldofNurgle View Post
0/10, try harder troll.

Trolling is making a statement without any proof. The proof is in the game, tanky dps is better than glass dps in almost everyway and even someone did the math to prove other points about it. So nice try trying call it a troll


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Danceblaster

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimensionist View Post
While the tanky DPS issue can be debated to a certain extent your math doesn't take into account effective scaling.

You give someone a sunfire cape and with most champions it's getting a linear bonus.

The 40 damage is just damage as is the HP and armor. For champions like Rammus he'll get some AD and vlad will get some AP etc.

Now give a black cleaver to say Ashe, her auto attacks will hit harder but you also have to factor in how it scales with her other abilities, like Volley. So now Volley will hit harder and so will her auto attacks. Wait her frost shot will fire at a faster rate allowing the enemy champion to be perma slowed easier.

TLDR: Most DPS champions get added bonuses than just their auto attacks with AD items while most tanks/tanky DPS won't at all or will be a much smaller impact.
I think my post partially explains why Ashe might be such an effective carry. Her slow and ult effectively allows a well-played Ashe to provide her own CC. If I can peg you with an ult and get a slow on you, it's much easier for me to get those first few hits in to "break even". At that point, the HP from the tank's sunfire is gone, while Ashe still has the additional damage effects, and so has the upper hand from there on out, in some sense. I'm not saying that the math says definitively that tanky-DPS are broken.However, it does suggest that a team of such characters can generally get away with more errors and less team support and perform.