Maokai = Tank, and why he's not anything else.

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GannonPig

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Senior Member

02-22-2011

Agreed


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HeyCuteBunny

Member

02-22-2011

jiji plays AP/Hybrid tank maokai and wins games, therefore your argument is invalid!


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Toros

Senior Member

02-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerolicious View Post
I don't even know why i'm replying, and probably will be downvoted.

But why is it always the guy who's unranked and played a total of 4 games w/ this new champion.. trying to preach on how to play him?
It's free week now. There are going to be a lot of people playing this champ for the first time.

I wanted to show what his strengths are, his weaknesses are, and why he's a Tank first and foremost.

If you play him more, maybe you'll find ways to build him when you already have a tank, but for solo que and normals, that's not as likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerolicious View Post
First and foremost, you can build plenty of toons in many ways.. and as long as you're a good player it'll still reflect in the overall outcome. To say you can't play maokai as an AP because blah blah blah, is rediculous. it's all about runes/setup. what not.
I never said you CAN'T play Maokai as AP, I explained that building him as straight AP makes him as squishy as other casters, and only has 1 harass ability. Compared to lux, with the same build, he falls short. It's the same with most other builds/roles.

Good players win games with AP Yi and AD Sion. That doesn't mean that they're not viable, and if you need to adapt, especially in solo, that's what you do.

But AD Yi> AP Yi, just like AP Sion > AD Sion. They simply provide the most out of the champ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerolicious View Post
I personally find him to be a horrible main tank, his dmg out put is pretty much un-noticable and the only real tankish ability he has is his ult. Unless you count the 2 seconds "snare" on a single target... If you're going to say picking him > certain AP chars, then you don't get the concept of him in general. You also could say "well he can't do what rammus/shen/singed can do.
He's a better main tank than singed, singed isn't a main tank. He's an off-tank, and a **** good one. Singed can't initiate if the enemy team has snares, slows, stuns that prevent him from reaching their carry, but he's amazing at pushing and cleaning up after teamfights.

Never did I say "Maokai is the best main tank". But his whole kit says "Main Tank", and he has no real synergy with other builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerolicious View Post
In all honesty, i've played him as all of the above, straight AP is obviously not the greatest choice as it leads to quick target change to you once you root and a pretty quick death. I found Beefy AP the way to go, simply cause while your damage isn't "great". You're job isn't to be the carry, you're a support that is able to help control the fight. Your dmg output is enough,you're able to soak up dmg. and at sametime able to snare people off your carry or stand on top of the other teams carry, all while supplying an ult that does a fair amount of dmg but overall is meant to soak dmg. All while AoE'ing /w sappling and spamming your ground slam.
For reasons I listed, Maokai doesn't have any real advantage to building hybrid over straight tank. He only has so much gold, and the more spent on AP is less spent on suvivability. Better bulky casters and hybrid/AP champs either A) get survivability from AP, or B) can supplement their loss of durability with more utility or innate durability.

Maokai does neither, and where did we start to think that champs couldn't be tanks unless they both tank and do high damage? Tanks don't need damage.

I bolded the part where YOU explain why hybrid's damage is not a selling point over straight tank with CDR (All tanks should get CDR if it means they provide more CC in a fight)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerolicious View Post
sorry if this semi got into a rant, but I hate when people try to tell others how to play when there's a ton of styles. Its like when alot of people snicker at someone grabbing heal or going AP on ez. And then they see someone like hotshot pull it off and immediately shut up. It's more about the player than the setup.. if you have a hardcore tank, you can play maokai however u want... Support Beefy AP or heck just a pure offtank that helps soak the dmg. But don't say that blah blah playing it is dumb, cause that's just ignorant.
If you already have a Shen/Rammus/Amumu, odds are that you could pick someone the team needs more then Maokai.

Would you pick Shen if you already had a Rammus? What about playing support/AP shen instead?

I hope you can see where your argument falls on it's face. Playing champions as other than their best possible role is kind of a futile exercise, assuming you're trying to put together the best team possible.

Saying you'd rather go hybrid Maokai is like saying you'd rather go AD Annie. It may work, but why not play Ashe over Annie then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
stopped reading when you said AP kogmaw was inferior to DPS

cant take someone like that seriously
I haven't seen a lot of kogmaw lately, tbh. I also haven't checked his scaling since he was changed, so it's entirely possible i was wrong.

But if you try to make an argument that i must be 100% right or 100% wrong... I guess there's nothing more to say.


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Whiskeyjack

Senior Member

02-22-2011

Maokai = tree, and why he's not anything else.



I have fixed your title for you OP.


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Pivu

Senior Member

02-22-2011

Ummm... Maokai has too low damage as a full tank. Even sunfire doesn't solve this problem.

Funny thing is.. My troll build idea for Maokai that i'm gonna try for sure. I think he would be good as a mellee beefy AD champ with a trinity force. Let's take a look at his skills.

1. Q - knockback - doesnt deal much damage if ur a tank or even AP. Rather a ult disrupter or a anti run skill.
2. W - root - also, not much damage, but great as a gap closer. Think of it as a improved yi's alpha strike.
3. E - something like teemo shrooms or caitlyns traps.
4. R - Isn't it made to be in mellee range?

I really think although those skills are not made for AD, it still could work for a fun troll build. Sheen/Tri force is mandatory, as he has 117 base damage on lvl 18. Pretty high.


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Toros

Senior Member

02-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivu View Post
Ummm... Maokai has too low damage as a full tank. Even sunfire doesn't solve this problem.

Funny thing is.. My troll build idea for Maokai that i'm gonna try for sure. I think he would be good as a mellee beefy AD champ with a trinity force. Let's take a look at his skills.

1. Q - knockback - doesnt deal much damage if ur a tank or even AP. Rather a ult disrupter or a anti run skill.
2. W - root - also, not much damage, but great as a gap closer. Think of it as a improved yi's alpha strike.
3. E - something like teemo shrooms or caitlyns traps.
4. R - Isn't it made to be in mellee range?

I really think although those skills are not made for AD, it still could work for a fun troll build. Sheen/Tri force is mandatory, as he has 117 base damage on lvl 18. Pretty high.
Damage isn't necessary for tanking. Durability and massive CC is more impressive.

The point of a tank is keeping a carry alive for as long as possible. An initiator sets up the enemy carry for a kill as well as possible.

Amumu could do no damage and still be a great tank, purely because a 2 second AOE root and bandage toss are fanatastic CC.

The reason he was banned for so long was massive cc + damage + survivability

As far as a troll build it's not the worst, but the actual troll with that build is better.


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Pivu

Senior Member

02-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toros View Post
Damage isn't necessary for tanking. Durability and massive CC is more impressive.
Yes, I can agree with you. Maokai build as a full tank reminds me very much of Alistar, almost the same gameplay with root, knockup


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raynefall

Member

02-22-2011

he does seem very Bull like in alot of ways. ie ignore him once the fight starts


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Toros

Senior Member

02-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pivu View Post
Yes, I can agree with you. Maokai build as a full tank reminds me very much of Alistar, almost the same gameplay with root, knockup
Alistar has much much longer cooldowns. Pulverize has 15 second base cooldown. Heabutt is 12.

Maokai's Q has a base cooldown of 5 seconds. It's not as powerful because you'll use it more times.

His W with max CDR is similar to headbutt, around 7 seconds. You'll get two roots in a fight with high CDR (and you should).

Alistar has great CC on a long cooldown. Maokai has worse CC on shorter cooldowns, and his ult makes a huge difference over the course of a teamfight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raynefall View Post
he does seem very Bull like in alot of ways. ie ignore him once the fight starts
Alistar's cooldowns are so long that once he blows them he's done for most of the fight. He then sheen punches you for meh damage.

Maokai is much more active, and continues to contribute throughout the fight, instead of huge at the beginning and significantly less after.


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Miirik

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Senior Member

02-22-2011

I was solo lane 1v2 bot a the other night as maokai, I still lost the tower (i couldn't get a gank to save my life no matter how many times I asked) But I held that tower and was able to push them back a few times with a philo stone, it was great on maokai till they finally were able to kill me when I was level 9 and take the tower @_@ dangit team why wouldn't you come to my aid? @_@