Why build crit on Tryndamere?

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ozzatron

Member

02-20-2011

Is the new crit system really that much of a difference? Not trying to hijack the thread but I played GP a couple days ago and I Q'd enemy champions maybe 10-15 times, completely ignoring their minions, with about 30% crit and not critting once.


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Ebonclaw

Senior Member

02-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoransTroll View Post
With the new crit change, I don't see a reason to build him with heavy crits anymore. Once you get above 50%, the game will ensure that you crit every 2nd hit, etc. It's consistent enough that you should be able to focus on other stats.
Since he can get crit chance from being low HP, you are pretty much guaranteed a relatively high crit rate even with very modest critical strike score on his items. So why not build some other stats instead?
You don't need consistent.

You need CONSTANT.

Tryndamere's success in most situations, depends directly on whether or not you are critting. Every non-crit puts you one step closer to death, and/or failure. Period.


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Hi Thar

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Junior Member

02-20-2011

Being someone who sits in the 1700s with my main being jungle trynd and kassadin here is my take on it...

First off I think that once you reach the point where your crit is 100% when you have 0 life you should absolutely not be getting anymore crit. It just isn't as efficient at that point as you spend probably 1/3-1/2 of every fight(That you stick around for) at 0 life. So that would put the magic number at 50% or less.

The build I go and I know many others go is (If i'm laning, otherwise I start with green elixir):

-Level 1 boots and 3 health pots.
-Avarice blade
-Vamp Scepter (Optional, but I like it)
-Ghostblade
- Level 2 boots (Either mercs or berserks)
-Infinity Edge
-And from here It depends... often I get a Quicksilver Sash... if not needed I will go for a Phantom dancer just for the run speed and attack speed mostly... I think a guardian angel is also worth looking at.

Note: After you get an IE you should have a Green Elixir on at all times.

This puts my crit chance at 43% being at full life. One thing I would also like to point out is the usefulness of crit is amazing early game while you're trying to not go back every 2 minutes to heal... so some early game crit is unavoidable imo.


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Greatrabe

Senior Member

02-20-2011

I think you should aim for 100% crit on trynd definitely, but only at 1hp. That means at max hp you will have 60%, 50% if not including your passive. Its not more than you will get from building necessary items anyway! just an IE, absolutely needed for the passive, and a phantom dancer, a core item for move speed. Once you have those two items feel free to go wild with bloodthirsters or starks or whatever.


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Hi Thar

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Junior Member

02-20-2011

Also would like to add that I still find crit to be horrendously unreliable… I don’t know the specifics of the system riot is using but I’ll still get only 2 crits out of about 15 attacks with 50% crit chance at times... which from what I understand should pretty much not be happening at all from what they've told us of the way crit calculations now work.


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Hi Thar

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Junior Member

02-20-2011

Just tried a GA.... Make sure you ult AFTER your GA goes off if you're going to... I ulted and then shortly after was stunned by my GA lol...


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DoransTroll

Senior Member

02-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzatron View Post
Is the new crit system really that much of a difference? Not trying to hijack the thread but I played GP a couple days ago and I Q'd enemy champions maybe 10-15 times, completely ignoring their minions, with about 30% crit and not critting once.
I think Parrley is an attack modifier, so your crit chance could be used up by normal attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebonclaw View Post
You don't need consistent.

You need CONSTANT.

Tryndamere's success in most situations, depends directly on whether or not you are critting. Every non-crit puts you one step closer to death, and/or failure. Period.
Quote:
+ All other quotes that said you should aim for 100% crit chance at 1 hp
This is where we do not see eye to eye.
Case 1) Aim for 100% crit chance at all time.
You're investing a lot of gold intro critical chance that is wasted as soon as you use your first spell (because your HP drops). If you want perfectly constant attack damage, you might as well not play Tryndamere.
Case 2) Aim for 100% crit chance at low HP.
Now this seems a bit better, but what does it really do for you?
For one, it makes sure your every attack is a critical strike when you use Undying Rage, provided you don't mess up the timing at all. Before that point, you don't have 100% crit chance.
I think what matters here is your crit chance during most of the fight. There is no need to get into percentage here, but more like "I am critting almost all the time", or "am I critting once or twice in a fight", as well as "how long is a fight taking--does an extra attack to crit add significant amount of time to the fight?"
While 100% is reassuring, real life doesn't need to be that certain. What I am proposing here is to create a margin of larger HP pool in such a way that you do not need to always be at 100% crit chance (with 1 HP, therefore relying on Undying Rage in every fight) so that Trynd as a whole becomes more consistent. I don't claim to know a perfect threshold for this, and like I said before--it is clear that no one knows yet either.


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Hi Thar

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Junior Member

02-20-2011

I think I see what you're saying for the most part... well you're wanting one of two things...

Either A: You want to have a little more survivability to make you be able to stay in the fight longer before blowing your ult, while still dishing out some major damage.

Or B: You want to be able to walk into a fight and not have to worry about dying anymore than say Xin Zhao would have to. Damage could be Ok... maybe shoot for a Ghostblade somewhere in the build for the damage aspect... maybe even a first item?

Not exactly sure what Items you would be looking at for A. Without a doubt you need an Infinity Edge to put out any sort of scary damage with trynd... so if you rushed an IE and green elixir then you would be well enough off. Then maybe a warmogs or Guardian Angel? Both? Not sure if this will counter his biggest problem all that well, which is the problem of being kited. Can't imagine STARTING with tankier items first... you would just be worthless. When you actually manage to catch them you will do less damage before they get away again.... will this be made up by being alive longer to catch them again? And without anything to increase run speed? I'm not quite convinced.

For B I think you're probably just better off picking Xin. I don't think Trynd has a whole lot to offer here. For the most part I spend all of mid-end game just trying to get in melee range for a few seconds to burst them down. Just really not the character for this kind of build imo.


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Frosty VooDoo

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Senior Member

02-20-2011

Alright, as a long-term Tryn Main (he was the first hero i played as, first hero i bought, and the hero i go X/0-2/X as the most) I can share quite a bit of insight here:

1: The concept that you only need a high-crit chance at low life will ultimately make you a non-threatening Tryn compared to what you could be.

Think about it, and think seriously: The idea that you should only have 100% crit chance at 1 hp means that you are threatening for all of 5 seconds (ie: durring Endless Rage). In reality, its closer to 4 as you should be on your way out of the damage-path before your ulti actually ends. If the enemy team knows that you will only start to crit them a majority of the time once you are near-death they will do a couple of things.

A) they will be more willing to engage you and harrass you as you will not be hitting hard until below 50% hp

B) they will keep track of when you ulti and push you hard when it is on CD because you can not sustain your damage against them

C) They will probably keep it together when you spin into a teamfight as you will not be a good primary target, or anyone who causes a panic at full health.

All three of these are problems. A Tryndamere that has a BASE crit chance in the upper 70's-80's while at 100% HP is terrifying to everyone on the enemy team, squishys and tanks alike. A Tryn with that kind of crit-chance that stacks a bit of life-drain can regularly win teamfights against a better organized and better equipped team than his own. That kind of crit-power also completely eliminates all three of the problems with only haveing 100% at 1hp: The enemy team will be very cautious about engaging you, the enemy team will not really want to harass you unless setting up a gank as they can not get that free shot or two in without being smacked very very hard, and if you spin into a teamfight unexpected it becomes very easy to cause the enemy team to panic and break their focus as you are an IMMEDIATE threat that has to be dealt with as fast as possible. For this reason my personal build is the following:

21/0/9 or 21/1/8 (depending on summoner spells)

+crit chance rune page (this is EXTREMELY USEFULL for covering Tryn's normal early-game weaknesses as level 1-8 characters CAN NOT COPE with regular critical hits. My normal level1 tryn has a 37% crit chance at 100% HP and regularly gets First Blood as a result)

either Cleanse/Ghost (21/0/9) - excelent resilience to CC, tells Exhaust to go die in a hole, good escapability/chase

or Heal/Ghost (21/1/8) - amazingly strong early-game presense lends itself to faster snowballing and numerous early-game kills due to overcommitting enemies. Also a substantial help against DoT like Ignite, Mal, or Morde. (Ulti, get DoT'd, Bloodlust stack burn, summoner heal)

Start with the +crit gloves that make Avarice Blade and 2 health pots. Build:
1: Avarice Blade
2: Zerker boots
3: AB into Ghostblade
4: Phantom Dancer (many put IE before this, but you should still be in mid-game right now and the +attack speed and +move speed WILL score you more mid-game kills than IE)
5: IE (obious reasons. at this point you will have a base crit chance of around 90%, 250% crit damage, 1.7 attk/second, and be one fast sonuva***** in terms of runspeed)
6: Bloodthirster
7: Optional.

This build will lead to you critting every single hit garunteed at 100% HP for around 1500 damage. Couple that with your speed and life steal and you will regularly walk into and then back out of fights with above 50% hp, making your ultimate a "get out of gank free" card, a back-dooring option to let you solo towers, and a way to hold a tower against an entire enemy team until help can arrive. If you buy two bloodthirsters, you can solo baron without a problem in about 15 seconds.

2: The idea that tanking items on Tryn is a good thing, or even acceptable.

To be short: No, it is not okay. If you want a tanky DPS character you are not looking to play Tryn. If you want survivability on tryn besides his amazing ultimate, run-away capacity, and absurd dps, get lifesteal.


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