Why is Manume good on the new Ryze? The answer for those who haven't figured it out

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Merich

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Senior Member

02-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyMastini View Post
No, he's actually not.

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=517876
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=521503

Both threads were posted well before this guy but were downvoted. Granted, the other items are suspect but Manamune was the key in both threads.

You people are sheep. You're like little naive teenagers that follow whatever a higher ranked player (or colored name) says.

It's pretty sad.
Neither of those is the build I had in mind. I agree with the downvotes on both. They are trying to do a very weird stat mix on Ryze.


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ChristianLacroix

Member

02-18-2011

The new Ryze is absolute complete and total garbage.


Before at least you could burst someone down quickly.

Now you have Q's that are hitting for 300 when you have 4000 mana....Seriously?

The damage is so slow and so horrible there's no reason to play Ryze. I wouldn't pick Ryze over ANY champion in the game. I can get kills easier on Sona.

Any champion with CC destroys you. Any champion with Lifesteal or self-heals laughs at you.

The ratio on his Q needs to be 20% of his mana, not 10% and then MAYBE he'll be half decent.


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Dracozero

Senior Member

02-18-2011

Archangel > manamune


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SlyGoat

Member

02-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merich View Post
By "total AP dump" do you mean the total of their AP multipliers? If this is true your math is incorrect. Annie is 2.1 while Ryze is 1.15

If not, explain what you mean by "total AP dump." Thanks.
the total damage they deal from their AP; i.e., not counting molten shield and including all of ryze's bounces on spellflux (spellflux bounces mattering more for their AoE damage than anything; i dont expect consistent spellflux damage)

ryze's ratios are only 1.15 if you're considering spell flux to only hit once, as i stated in my post.


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KKumar

Senior Member

02-18-2011

How about you get a Sheen? Let's take a look at how a Sheen works better:

Stats: 250 Mana, 25 Ability Power, and a passive that grants 80% bonus attack damage on next attack after casting a spell.
Cost: 1260 G.

This effectively works much better. With 40% CDR, which you will attain with Frozen Heart, Overload has a 2.1 second Cooldown. The cooldown on the proc for Sheen is 2 seconds. Already we can see how effective this is. With a huge mana pool, you can spam Overload and follow-up with a powerful auto-attack right after, and you'll usually get 1 attack off. Rarely would you get 2, so the argument for more damage over 2 attacks is disregarded. With 80% more damage, at level 18 Ryze's auto-attack does 187.2 damage (104 base). Since you do this damage every 2 seconds, and an Overload every second in between, that damage really adds up. Not to mention the nuke on Rune Prison and Spell Flux and Desperate Power reducing the CD of Overload to 1.1 seconds. Unless you get some AS item, Manamune is definitely weaker than Sheen for your argument. As long as you have massive mana from other sources (Frozen Heart + Banshee's Veil core provides enough), the damage output will match Manamune's earlier on and out-shine it later on. Not to mention, Sheen builds into Lich Bane, which also gives more mana, AP, and increases the passive to 100% (double) bonus attack damage.

I see no valid argument for Manamune.


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ZeeRow

Senior Member

02-18-2011

I got both.

http://i51.tinypic.com/20raiw6.jpg

220AP 230AD. (aprox, can't remember exact numbers)


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GregoryCorso

Member

02-18-2011

I'd rather rush ROA after rushing tears than get sheen, 725 mana for one item slot is a high priority


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Foxflare

Senior Member

02-18-2011

OP's argument is flawed.

Archangel's gets you ~150 AP.
Manamune gives you ~100 AD.

"But Ryze AP ratio so badddddd!"

Doesn't mean he doesn't actually HAVE ap ratios. He still does. So AP still increases your damage.

"But they so bad that autoattacks do more damage!"

No, you just didn't bother doing math. Look at the super basic combo. QWQEQ. Your "cast speed" is basically an "attack speed" of 2.000 at this point due to cd rotations on Q. What's the total AP benefit from it?
0.2 + 0.6 + 0.2 + (0.35 up to six times) + 0.2

Let's be super generous and assume Spell Flux only hits one target then disappears. Wtf, right? But that gives it a 0.35 ratio. Total ratios? 1.55 AP ratio.

That means your 150 AP from Archangel's was converted to 230 magic damage from his basic combo. The combo he's using in kiting. An ult-less combo, with no bounces, and no AoE splash.

That means you have to attack at least 2 times to get the same damage that you got from Archangel's. Which is a lie, because you really have to attack more. That's because your E gives you MR reduction, and you probably bought mpen. What kind of Ryze would have ArPen on him? People have something 80 base armor at 18, and only 30 base mr at 18.

But let's be generous and say he only needs 2 autoattacks. What's his attack speed at 18?
0.846

That means, unless he builds attack speed items (lol), he takes 1.2 seconds per attack. So for your requisite "2 seconds", it would take him 2.4 seconds to break even.

His CD in between spell rotations is 2.5 seconds.

What does that imply? Basically, if
1. Your opponents have so much MR that even your MPen didn't reduce it below your armor
2. You're fighting a single target
3. You have no ult
4. Your Spell Flux doesn't bounce
5. You have enough micro skills to fit in 2 attacks with the 0.1 second margin of error you have

then yes, Manamune breaks even (if you call dealing 30 less damage breaking even) in the amount of damage you deal.

Tl;dr The only reason to ever get Manamune instead of Archangel's is if you can't afford Archangel's.

Remark: Most people are getting Manamune instead of Archangels just for the sake of having as low AP as possible. But AD is even more useless than AP, so that's a fault.