[Guid] Dark Matter Veigar, why your DFG is failing you

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RoflTroll

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakalzam View Post
100 is a bit generous, but 60 is incredibly generous. The point of this guide is to spam W to farm. You'll have no mana for Q (even with a Tear) if you do what this guide says and you'll waste your Q a lot of the time due to its poor damage output, so you should recalculate your numbers for the second example to like 10 AP from Q bonus. Also Veigar almost always gets a Tear of the Goddess before anything else (e.g. boots).
It's 'free farm', and I don't have mana problem with similar build(though I go Q/E/Q/W/Q then max W instead). If you're running out, then you just aren't packing enough regen. Tear is meh for Vei simply because he wants regen for the most part (tear doesn't gives more regen than Meki). I'd rather just make that Mana Crystal into Catalyst for Banshee late game.

Tear also doesn't gives him any survivability, which he lacks early game, E being on 20s cooldown at level 1 isn't reliable enough to escape all the time.

Also, 10 AP bonus from Q at level 10 assuming free farm is ridiculously biased.

If a Veigar can't last hit with Q, it's the player's fault, 80 damage at level 1 is more than a ranged champion's starting basic attack, and they can last hit just fine.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

biomorph

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoflTroll View Post
Calculation:
...
Vei A's burst will do:
260 + 220 + 250 = 730 + 559(2.6 AP) = 1289 without DFG.

Now Vei B(3-5-1-1)
...
Vei B's burst will do:
170 + 320 + 250 = 740 + 777.4 = 1517.4 damage

Damage differences: 228 damage
...
TL;DR Deathcap first lose out in full combo-burst, but have better AP scaling and more damage in partial combo burst.
Now I did not check your numbers but lets assume they are sound. The thing I notice the most is "without DFG" which is what makes this comparison void. The point of rushing DFG is because you want to make use of it ASAP!. If we say we are using it on a 1200HP champ you get 222 damage from DFG if you have farmed such that you have 100AP+ with DFG (which is typically the case). That is close to the difference you mention and here is the kicker: It's reliable whereas Dark Matter will miss eventually especially if you only have 1 point in EH. And with a fast DFG you don't need EH to burst the **** out of somone because DFG->Primordial->Baleful are not skill shots you can easily land all three without EH.
I level Dark Matter last because with DFG I don't need Dark Matter early on to do my job and with a maxed EH I will land Dark Matter easier and a Max EH has far more value in team fights. So my skilling order is R->Q->E->W. I will agree that you can easily leave Baleful at rank 3 but then I'd still level EH over Dark Matter.
When I am in need of the extra damage from Dark Matter that is when it will be at rank 3+. I understand how much damage you can pump out of Dark Matter but because of the mechanics I prefer the skilling order that I do. Besides the first item I go for after DFG is Deathcap and by the time I have that baby I am usually at 400 AP which means a smacking 29% HP nuke from DFG! My preferred targets are usually dead before Dark Matter lands ...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Superdadd

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakalzam View Post
Why the hell would you want to kill wraiths and wolves and what not with W, when you can farm them for AP. The same goes for minions. You do not want to farm minions with W. You want to sit back and last hit them with Q and get free AP. If you really need your W to get farmed up, you should create some practice games and work on your last hitting.

Also, Veigar does not want the minions pushed to his turret. This prevents him from Qing because he can't wait for the cooldown before the turret obliterates them. Other posters have already covered the Q cooldown issue.

Arrgh...this guide is so full of wrong.

You are 100% looking at this from the wrong angle. You are seeing minions dying to W and thinking you are losing Q farming.

You are not.

All that matters is that Q fires (and kills) every cooldown. It's Q's per unit time that matters, not Q per unit minion.

With this build, you still fire your Q just as much (well not quite as much, but at least 75% as much), however, while you are doing that, you are W'ing ranged waves when they hit your turret, then wraiths and wolves. You do this all while Q'ing every cooldown!! Do not misunderstand this, it is so important to understand.

If people want to just dismiss the build without even trying it... go ahead. I'll match up with you and outlevel you by 2-3 levels, and out farm you by 1000+ gold at the 25 min mark. I'll laugh at your 250 AP "farmed" Q, while I'm sitting with 500-600 AP, nuking harder with 3 ranks of higher spells.

Why do you want to kill wraiths/wolves every respawn? Because it's great gold and those are up 90% of the time, since at this point in the game your jungler ignores those camps. They just pick up buffs and go back out and gank.

Why do you use W to kill them? Because you kill them ON THE RUN TO WOLVES. While you are sitting there farming your Q, taking 10 seconds to clear that camp, I've already cleared wraiths, AND WOVLES and am back in my lane. You Q'd 4 times, but I still Q'd 3 times.


TLDR : Q's per unit time is all that matters, not maximizing Q's per minion wave.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Superdadd

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakalzam View Post
100 is a bit generous, but 60 is incredibly generous. The point of this guide is to spam W to farm. You'll have no mana for Q (even with a Tear) if you do what this guide says and you'll waste your Q a lot of the time due to its poor damage output, so you should recalculate your numbers for the second example to like 10 AP from Q bonus. Also Veigar almost always gets a Tear of the Goddess before anything else (e.g. boots).

No, the point of this guide is not to W farm. You also don't max W because you can't farm effectively due to being a bad last hitter. Those are two incorrect assumptions based on absolutely nothing, just reading a post and thinking you know everything. Try the build out, perfect the build, THEN come post. I'll clear this up though, because it was posted a few times... You are NOT leveling W to farm. You don't "farm' with W. You don't push a lane with W. You only W the ranged minions when they are under the tower. You do this to ENSURE 100% CS from the wave, WHILE Q'ing every cooldown. This build will get 100% CS from each and every single wave, while STILL getting 2 or 3 Q's off per wave (and complimenting that with 2-3 Q's in Wraiths/wolves combo between waves).

Veigar has a fairly weak earlygame, and if anyone comes here posting that they can just sit and freefarm Q from levels 1-5 they are blatently lying. They are getting maybe 50% of the CS from each wave, thinking their Q build is the bomb because they have lower CD that they can't use because they are zoned anyways. This build is 100% safe. You Q once before mobs hit your tower, then you clear the entire wave for full CS while under the safety of your tower. You can't get pushed out of the lane. Then while the wave pushes back out, you are farming wraiths (and later wolves, and even later golems) while you don't miss any EXP and the Q build veigar just sits there waiting to be able to hit again. You are 100% safe from jungler ganks. You hit 6 MUCH faster, and can get a free kill faster. You Q wraiths on the way to support top/bot with ganks, then steal their jungle camps in 1 second, free of threat of getting ganked. This build maximizes CS farm, exp farm, and due to the level difference, the Q-gap closes FAST simply because you hit 13-14 MUCH faster in this build (and in the meantime you mitigate the 25% lost Q spam with 1000ish gold, that I personally value higher regardless). You have more levels because you "jungle" faster, you have more skills (this more dmg from base dmg of nukes), more HP, more Mana, more mana regen, etc.. compared to the other build, at the same point in the game.

You are leveling W because of this one fact:

Provided you are skilled enough to last-hit with rank 1 Q, the difference in higher rank Q is ONLY in cooldown reduction.

Infact, I'd say that this build requires a HIGHER skill cap, since you must last-hit with rank 1 Q only. Infact, I see a Q/E/Q/W/Q build as being the "I'm bad at last hitting, so I'll max Q so that I can last hit easier" build.

Provided you are skilled enough to last-hit with rank 1 (or rank 2) Q, then adding additional points in Q is serving almost NO purpose (only a 1 second shorter cooldown reduction).

The difference between a 5 second versus 7 second (2 ranks) cooldown on Q is 40%. That means you get 40% more Q's in the same time... given perfect cooldown useage. Now factor in that a LOT of that time is wasted due to minion wave respawns, waiting on minion hp to decrease so that you can Q without pushing too much, etc... you'll find that your increased ranks in Q is only giving you maybe 25% more Q's than a W build. So if a W build is getting 100 AP farm, the Q build is only getting 125 AP farm. However, while the W build is trading off 25% fewer Q's, he is gaining max rank W, and is 1-hitting wraiths on the run to wolves, gaining roughly 150 more gold per minute and roughly 300 more exp per minute. He's gaining a 1:1 AP ratio AOE nuke that he uses to DOMINATE teamfights at level 9-13.

And as far as the DFG, that is only a suprior burst choice when you factor in W hitting only 1 opponent. DFG first is great if the laning phase lasts 25 mins. It's MUCH MUCH MUCH worse when teamfights start at level 9. In that case, I'd MUCH rather have a max rank W and Rabadon's Cap.


The only way to test this out is to play it, and play it against other veigars doing the cookie cutter build. I've done so 80+ times. And in doing so, I know that they have about 250 AP at the 25 min mark, and I'm rocking 500+ with at least 2-3 levels higher than them.

And if you think DFG ganks are strong, try ganking bot with a perfect stun (since they aren't expecting you) and a darkmatter that hits both laners. That gank will result in a double-kill MUCH more often than a DFG/Q/R gank.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZipperNeck

Member

02-14-2011

Superdadd,

I respect your willingness to break from the cookie cutter builds and try things differently. Its only through pioneering uncharted ways of doing things that we learn to optimize performance. That being said I feel I would be remiss in not saying that this is not the optimal way to AP farm with Veigar. While I recognize what you are doing and why you choose to do things the way you are, I believe you said you had trouble last hitting in the pervious thread. I believe that the Best way to play Veigar is not Q OVER W or W OVER Q. Its a mix based on the team you face. I always get 2 levels of EH an then MAX Q and W First before finishing EH. Simply because as you stated you can by mid game one shot the wolves and wraiths. Early game I believe you shouldn't be taking those creeps away from your Jungler. Maxing Q first gives you excellent cool down and with runes you can hit 2-3 or more for creeps per wave.

That being said what your doing is not wrong, just no the most effective way to play him.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

biomorph

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
No, the point of this guide is not to W farm..... Stuff
This is just loaded. Regardless why you use W on creep waves you are likely to push the lane and that is definitely not what you want. And if you are using both W and Q your mana will run out fast. This is completely inconsistent with more or equal last hits with Q. You level Q because you want to last hit as often as possible completely disregarding the level of skill because it is a complete non sequitur. What was said that if you need W to last hit then you are doing it wrong. But now that it is conclusive that that is not your intent, as originally stated you do not want to push your lane.

If you are doing mid lane the best you can do is not to push your lane and the best way to do this is only to last hit unless your enemy is trying to push you. That would put him in the situation you would not want to be in. You restrain your self from using W and EH unless you really have to because the mana is too dear to you to waste on anything else but Q last hitting. The only time I would use E and W is if we try to gank or a gank is attempted on me.

I use MR5/lvl Seals and start out with Meki pendant. Even with his passive I can still stress my mana just from Q last hitting but that is ok considering the Q last hits/time ratio which the higher the better.

And bot lane does not expect you, give me a break. It is so common that they place wards at river just to avoid ganks and if their mid calls miss in time I think they have a pretty good idea of what is happening. this of course is true regardless of build.

DFG is used in conjuction with R (and E and possibly W) to take out key targets before they get a chance to do anything. If they have merc treads and your EH is only at rank 1 they dodge dark matter far too easy. As far as team fights go a maxed out cage has infinitely higher value for your team than a dark matter.

The point of DFG is that compared to dark matter is that it lands every time. You snipe that key target and then retreat and wait for whatever happens next. No it's not good for double kills but that is not how I view veigar. I have also tried the max dark matter approach when I started playing veigar and then I build arch angel as first item. It just blows compared to reliably sniping squishies with DFG->R->Q. You don't need W, it's just a added bonus that you can use later in the game.

I do understand the desire for high burst potential. The rush DFG does this as well, just later on. DFG, Sorc Boots and Rabadon is a pretty common build. But until then you just reliably farm targets instead of having to steal jungle creeps from those who need it more than you do. Another thing is that if you want to bypass DFG and use the unreliable dark matter you NEED lots of AP to get the strategy to fly in the first place. With DFG you don't need close to the same amount to do just as well or better and the kicker is that it's far more reliable.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Superdadd

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
This is just loaded. Regardless why you use W on creep waves you are likely to push the lane and that is definitely not what you want.. (plus more of the same).
I don't know how many times I have to reiterate this point. You are NOT W'ing on ranged until they are under your turret. You do not push the lane. At all. This build pushes the lane LESS than a Q build, simply because the Q build takes larger chunks of HP off mobs while they spam it every cooldown. That's right, Q build PUSHES HARDER.


Quote:
And bot lane does not expect you, give me a break. It is so common that they place wards at river just to avoid ganks and if their mid calls miss in time I think they have a pretty good idea of what is happening. this of course is true regardless of build.
You do realise that you disappear every single minion wave. You clear their wraiths, you clear your wraiths/wolves. You are nonstop leaving the lane. If they call MIA everytime you leave the lane, they'll call it out every push. Then they'll say "Re". Then the time you actually go down to gank, nobody will take the MIA that seriously.

They may also have river warded, but that's not a reason to not gank. That's a common denominator of any build, and shouldn't be a reason used to dispute the validity of a build. That's just a silly point to bring up. Regardless of warded river (lol), this build - without a doubt) ganks better than a Q build, simply because you are more likely to land a double 1:1 AP ratio AoE nuke when ganking, and if you do so (which I do at least 95% of the time), you are almost certainly going to get a double-kill.



Quote:
DFG is used in conjuction with R (and E and possibly W) to take out key targets before they get a chance to do anything. If they have merc treads and your EH is only at rank 1 they dodge dark matter far too easy.

As far as team fights go a maxed out cage has infinitely higher value for your team than a dark matter.
I say in my guide, as soon as you see mercs, you get another point in E. It's right in there. Like seriously, try reading it.

And I have to 100% disagree on E>W for teamfights. Extra ranks of E are giving you approx 0.5 sec extra stun. That's really not that much at all. I'd MUCH rather be hitting their entire team for an extra 20-30% of their HP every 8 (or so) seconds, while still stunning (for 0.5 seconds less). In teamfights, it's SO SO SO SO easy to land dark matter from WAY THE F BACK. You don't even need the stun to hit with W in teamfights.

If you max Q/E, then what the heck is your contribution to a teamfight at level 11? Maybe blow one person up then run back to base? While you are doing that, I'm dropping W's as harassment every 8ish seconds from a mile away (which lands a LOT, lemme tell you), then when the teamfight starts, I W on at least 3 people, blowing at least 1 up instantly.

Seriously, try rank 5 W at level 9 teamfights. It's absolutely crazy damage when you go cap first (usually get cap at 20 min mark).

Regardless if you think E > W for teamfights, the only difference in the two builds (mine vs cookie cutter) is not E versus W, but Q versus W. And don't even try to tell me that you think Q is better than W in a teamfight.



Quote:
The point of DFG is that compared to dark matter is that it lands every time. You snipe that key target and then retreat and wait for whatever happens next.

No it's not good for double kills but that is not how I view veigar. I have also tried the max dark matter approach when I started playing veigar and then I build arch angel as first item. It just blows compared to reliably sniping squishies with DFG->R->Q. You don't need W, it's just a added bonus that you can use later in the game.
So you went archangel first and dismissed the build based on that? Funny stuff.

Quote:
I do understand the desire for high burst potential. The rush DFG does this as well, just later on. DFG, Sorc Boots and Rabadon is a pretty common build. But until then you just reliably farm targets instead of having to steal jungle creeps from those who need it more than you do. Another thing is that if you want to bypass DFG and use the unreliable dark matter you NEED lots of AP to get the strategy to fly in the first place. With DFG you don't need close to the same amont to do just as well or better and the kicker is that it's far more reliable.
I even put this into the OP in several places so that people don't misinterpret, and this guy still does. I don't even know what to do anymore.

You do not arbitrarily steal your junglers camps. Go read the freaking guide before you comment.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

biomorph

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
That's right, Q build PUSHES HARDER.
Not unless you choose to. You last hit with Q or auto attack interchangable but the point is that you only last hit. It is your choice whether you last hit for as much damage as you can or not. But obviously the more last hits with Q the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
You do realise that you disappear every single minion wave. You clear their wraiths, you clear your wraiths/wolves. You are nonstop leaving the lane. If they call MIA everytime you leave the lane, they'll call it out every push. Then they'll say "Re". Then the time you actually go down to gank, nobody will take the MIA that seriously.
This is assuming a tad too much while not excluding that it can be the case but I would not make a general case out of it. Eventually one might run into their jungler and then who knows what might happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
They may also have river warded, but that's not a reason to not gank. That's a common denominator of any build, and shouldn't be a reason used to dispute the validity of a build. That's just a silly point to bring up. Regardless of warded river (lol), this build - without a doubt) ganks better than a Q build, simply because you are more likely to land a double 1:1 AP ratio AoE nuke when ganking, and if you do so (which I do at least 95% of the time), you are almost certainly going to get a double-kill.
No, I never said not gank. But you are presenting it as: Then you just go there drop W and get double kill and it just works ... Bull **** I say unless you play against newcomers or bots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
I say in my guide, as soon as you see mercs, you get another point in E. It's right in there. Like seriously, try reading it.
Fine you got me there but the agony of reading it got the best of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
And I have to 100% disagree on E>W for teamfights. Extra ranks of E are giving you approx 0.5 sec extra stun. That's really not that much at all. I'd MUCH rather be hitting their entire team for an extra 20-30% of their HP every 8 (or so) seconds, while still stunning (for 0.5 seconds less). In teamfights, it's SO SO SO SO easy to land dark matter from WAY THE F BACK. You don't even need the stun to hit with W in teamfights.
It is quite clear that it is all about "me me me" with you so I do understand why you prefer what you do. 0.5 per rank means 2 seconds difference from 1 point to 5 points. Amumu ulti got shaved 1 second of it's total duration resulting on many people initially regarding it as overpowered to now regarding it as completely useless (or close to it) especially if enemy team packs Merc Treads so do not dismiss there small differences as those are the measures you have to work with in compeditive play. Personally when playing against Veigar dodging the Dark Matter is the easy part. And few team fights last long enough for you to drop a second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
If you max Q/E, then what the heck is your contribution to a teamfight at level 11? Maybe blow one person up then run back to base? While you are doing that, I'm dropping W's as harassment every 8ish seconds from a mile away (which lands a LOT, lemme tell you), then when the teamfight starts, I W on at least 3 people, blowing at least 1 up instantly.
Longer stun for my team and reliably sniping their AP pest or squishy carry. DFG makes this way easier and you do not need dark matter to do this. In other words securing a kill on a target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
Seriously, try rank 5 W at level 9 teamfights. It's absolutely crazy damage when you go cap first (usually get cap at 20 min mark).
Yes it is crazy damage IF you hit. In conjunction with E it's easier for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
Regardless if you think E > W for teamfights, the only difference in the two builds (mine vs cookie cutter) is not E versus W, but Q versus W. And don't even try to tell me that you think Q is better than W in a teamfight.
Dunno ... 8 second cool down you say? That would put Q at say 3 second cool down. So you throw a higher damage spell with chance of missing and wait 8 seconds for it and in the mean time you can pick a target hit it with a lesser damage, yet still significant, and then 3 seconds later hit it against and sure enough I can keep doing this on and on and not miss assuming I live long enough. So you need to define better as potential higher damage rather than reliable significant damage and spammable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
So you went archangel first and dismissed the build based on that? Funny stuff.
Nop, Arch Angel was just the first item for mana fxing. My point was revolving a build around W blows in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdadd View Post
I even put this into the OP in several places so that people don't misinterpret, and this guy still does. I don't even know what to do anymore.
Just leave it all together. Leaving lanes too often will cause your turret to take damage, your risk running into jungler and you do not need it. Besides if we disregard the jungler your carries are better of farming jungle.

Well I'm not able to contribute more harm here rather than you should prefix this post as guide rather than a globally unique identifier


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fattyfatty2by4

Senior Member

02-14-2011

I play Veigar. I suppose I do the R/Q/W/E cookie cutter. Meki->Tear, DFG/Boots...etc. etc. I probably start out slow with the AP, but it shoots up very quick mid-game. I live and die by the DFG as it gives me the great burst I need early on. Dark Matter usually misses until later on. I use it more as a deterrent to scare people back (or be stupid and get pasted with it). It's just not reliable until later on unless you throw extra points in EH, which usually seems unproductive (to me) early on.

I hardly ever play a game where two champs are ever standing close enough to get hit by the same DM. If they are, they're usually tanky players up front. I've always found it better to be able to snipe off one of the range in back during team fights making it a quick advantage for us. This is easy with the DFG/PB/BS. Then I can throw EH/DM around for added control and damage once the other team gets unraveled. Even when ganking early/mid levels, I'd rather use the DFG/PB/BS just to push one of them back if it doesn't kill them. They usually won't be willing to sacrifice themselves to try saving their teammate who is now at a huge disadvantage and will usually die.

You also shouldn't completely ignore the fact of gaining higher AP passive on higher Q from killing champs. It adds up.

If your build works for you and your team is happy with what you're doing, that's really all that matters.


123