[Guid] Dark Matter Veigar, why your DFG is failing you

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Superdadd

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Most junglers don't really touch wolves/wraiths after level 5, 6, 7 anyways. They just grab buffs then head back out.


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ZXPrototype

Senior Member

02-10-2011

I only ever play veigar to rofl stomp Vladimor.
He is the PERFECT counter champion to vlad, without DFG, how the hell am i supposed to take down anyone with 2k, 3k, 4k hp? I can't without it.

besides why would I be stealing jungle gold anyways, thats my precious warwick's gold, as if he's starved enough. Jungler's need every camp they can get or else their items are delayed and if they don't get 100% ganks (which you know is understandably not always possible) then your hording gold to yourself.
The whole point of a solo lane is to get lots and lots of gold, so give the rest to the jungler.


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biomorph

Senior Member

02-10-2011

DFG is THE item for Veigar and if you are not rushing this baby you will only be a shadow of your true potential. The OP is either ignorant of this or trolling.
Second the main reason you want to level Q fast is because of the cool down. You want to last hit as many creeps as you can in the early game phase as it will pay off a hundred fold later on in the game. This is also why I get clarity on Veigar and start with meki pendant. You can easily skip it but I include it for the simple reason that I want to spam Q as much as i can as early as I can. Dark matter only becomes a great farm spell when you have a fair amount of AP.

I am using full MPen runes with the exception of MR5/level seals. This means I start with zero AP but with Sorc shoes I get 39 MPen which mean true damage to many champions and even if they pack magic resist it will be heavily negated. If you have been last hitting like a boss with Q early game even with no AP runes or items beyond DFG you can easily have 100 AP by the time you get DFG which means 18.5% of HP and with all that MPen it's true damage in many cases. You will be sniping caster and squishy non casters alike mid game only wearing DFG and Sorc boots.


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Nickicksu

Senior Member

02-13-2011

I don't know why everybody is hating so much on this build, I think it is fantastic. I'm not a super experienced veigar player or even good in ranked but comparing my CS, AP, and downright kills using a Q first build to a W first build shows that W is superior. I absolutely understood what the poster said about your AP hitting 800-1000 while the Q first build would take another ten minutes to get there. Sure in a Q first build you have a DFG but the CD is an entire minute long and your AP is severely packing. Whoever said that farming wraiths or wolves for exp wasn't crucial to Veigar think again. I was literally sitting 4 levels higher than my mid by lv18 in ALL of my recent Veigar games. Before this post I went meki to tear to sorc boots to DFG to cap to a AA to lichbane and my AP was nothing at the 25min mark compared to the non DFG build. Hell I stayed so far ahead in level and I had so much AP by the 25 mark I one shotted a teemo 4 levels under me with my ult. I wasn't even fed, I just had so many minion kills thanks to jungle farming that my AP was over 4x that of any casters in my game. The thread maker is completely right about it having a snowball effect. The level difference, gold difference, etc goes up exponentially with this build. TY post maker.


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Alakalzam

Member

02-13-2011

Why the hell would you want to kill wraiths and wolves and what not with W, when you can farm them for AP. The same goes for minions. You do not want to farm minions with W. You want to sit back and last hit them with Q and get free AP. If you really need your W to get farmed up, you should create some practice games and work on your last hitting.

Also, Veigar does not want the minions pushed to his turret. This prevents him from Qing because he can't wait for the cooldown before the turret obliterates them. Other posters have already covered the Q cooldown issue.

Arrgh...this guide is so full of wrong.


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biomorph

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickicksu View Post
I don't know why everybody is hating so much on this build, I think it is fantastic. I'm not a super experienced veigar player or even good in ranked but comparing my CS, AP, and downright kills using a Q first build to a W first build shows that W is superior.
W kills your mana and the way I see it - in early game - one mana not used to last hit with Q is wasted mana.. The Q first approach is primarily to lower the CDR so you can last hit better. And if you need W to get a good enough CS you should practice last hitting better (with auto attack) and you should not need W to farm. The advantage gained from a fast DFG + Sorc boots and running with 100AP early in the game is that you will jsut run and snipe selected targets at will and get farmed (which can also be done without W) and now you farm players rather than creeps. When your enemies become beefier then your W is starting to do the job of finishing them off.
My main point is that this guide is not making the most of Veigar. If we allow that there is some merit in taking W over Q you should always, always, always take DFG. What the OP suggests is almost equivalent to buying a car without an engine ...


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HMS BUTTPEE

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Whoever said that farming wraiths or wolves for exp wasn't crucial to Veigar think again
I have. Stop stealing creep camps from your jungler.

Here's the thing, this is an EASIER way to play Veigar. It is however, a much worse way to play Veigar. Superficially, it appears to be better. Until you realize you can get more total AP from Q farm, than from just gold from wraiths and wolves. Especially when you farm wraiths with Q. Moreover, you can farm those jungle camps with a lower level W.In fact, at lower levels it will bring them right into Baleful last hit range.


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RoflTroll

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
W kills your mana and the way I see it - in early game - one mana not used to last hit with Q is wasted mana.. The Q first approach is primarily to lower the CDR so you can last hit better. And if you need W to get a good enough CS you should practice last hitting better (with auto attack) and you should not need W to farm. The advantage gained from a fast DFG + Sorc boots and running with 100AP early in the game is that you will jsut run and snipe selected targets at will and get farmed (which can also be done without W) and now you farm players rather than creeps. When your enemies become beefier then your W is starting to do the job of finishing them off.
My main point is that this guide is not making the most of Veigar. If we allow that there is some merit in taking W over Q you should always, always, always take DFG. What the OP suggests is almost equivalent to buying a car without an engine ...
Calculation:

Let's say it's level 10(5-3-1-1) when the Vei A, typical DFG rushing build, get his DFG and Sorc Shoe after Doran's Ring. And he got a Blasting Wand for Deathcap in the future as well.
Let's say he's been left alone and has been farming nicely, having +100 AP from Q.
Total AP: 100 + 60 + 15 + 40 = 215 AP.
Vei A's burst will do:
260 + 220 + 250 = 730 + 559(2.6 AP) = 1289 without DFG.

Now Vei B(3-5-1-1), since he rush for Deathcap, say he's allowed to free farm as well, and since his Q doesn't have as low of a cooldown, say he got only 60 AP from Q.
So he'd have Ring, Deathcap, and Sorc Shoe.
Vei B's total AP: (155 + 60 + 15) * 1.3 = 299 AP
Vei B's burst will do:
170 + 320 + 250 = 740 + 777.4 = 1517.4 damage

Damage differences: 228 damage.

With DFG's active added in, Vei A would 'win' in the burst power, though this is in the best case scenario. In actual game, you most likely won't be using Q on cooldown all the time, so result may varies.

But basically, 2-3 in Q should gives you enough damage/decently low enough cooldown to last hit in lane without heavily pushing it. And with W's extra damage, you will have more presence early game (Q-first build lose out on AP each time you have to poke someone, 3Q-W build only Q people for finishing them off).

TL;DR Deathcap first lose out in full combo-burst, but have better AP scaling and more damage in partial combo burst.


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Alakalzam

Member

02-14-2011

100 is a bit generous, but 60 is incredibly generous. The point of this guide is to spam W to farm. You'll have no mana for Q (even with a Tear) if you do what this guide says and you'll waste your Q a lot of the time due to its poor damage output, so you should recalculate your numbers for the second example to like 10 AP from Q bonus. Also Veigar almost always gets a Tear of the Goddess before anything else (e.g. boots).


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HMS BUTTPEE

Senior Member

02-14-2011

Quote:
Vei B(3-5-1-1),
This is actually the skill build I use. And it is in fact adequate for Q farming. However, my skill order is different from the initial post.


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