[Guid] Dark Matter Veigar, why your DFG is failing you

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Superdadd

Senior Member

02-10-2011

It seems Veigar is underrated, but I know why. It is because his Q>W Deathfire Grasp (DFG) cookie cutter build is flawed. Now that W only needs rank 1 of E to land 100% of the time (baring merc treads, at which point you just put another point in E), you can go with a W build with only 1 point in E. /edit: DFG isn't bad, but DFG first is bad. If you want DFG, get it, but get it as a 4th item, not rushing for it. Rushing DFG instantly turns off your ability to access a free exp/gold farm. /endedit.

Strength of this build:
1) This build allows you to tap into a free EXP/GOLD farm that a Q>W build cannot. See details below. You can start farming Wraith/Wolves as early as level 5, on every respawn, without missing CS/EXP in mid. Q>W simply cannot do this. It is this extra gold and exp that I feel makes the W>Q build far far superior, and is also why DFG builds are bad (since they fall behind the wraith/wolve hp scaling). Now.. don't go stealing these camps from your jungler. Take them if he is no longer taking them. They respawn every minute, so if you can get them before he needs them feel free to clear it. Take theirs anytime you feel it is safe to do so. Also, generally after level 9 or so, junglers will normally skip wolves/wraiths, and just pick up buffs and gank. Obviously don't steal their exp/gold. Use your brain. This guide does not advocate you disconnecting yourself from your grey-matter.
2) Higher utility at level 9 for early teamfights. You don't need to farm top for 15 mins to be worth something. You don't need to wait to level 13+ to be useful in teamfights.
3) Faster levels, faster AP gained per time (even with a worse Q) due to better gold farming, it's easier to stay ahead of the opponent power curve with this build. This allows you to keep a mejai's stacked, and ensure you 1-hit people all game long and never fall behind.
4) Ensuring at least 90+% of CS of each wave, complimented by additional CS farm. Even a Q max build cannot afford to sit out in the open and Q farm. Veigar's level 1-5 game is generally very weak. This build allows you to maintain near-100% CS farm in the early levels, while not missing out on Q farm as much as you'd think. Try it out before you make this assumption. The ability to maintain a high CS earlygame is monumentally huge for how it impacts your midgame. Plus, the entire time you are completely free from threat of jungle ganks, since you push the lane much much (MUCH) slower than a Q build does.


The build....

Dark Matter Veigar:
Lane: Solomid
Skill Order:
A) Ideal: Q/W/W/E/W/R, then level E based on merc tread usage, level R> W > Q> E.
B) Option: Q/E/Q/W/W/R/W/WW (if you need 2 ranks of Q to reliably last-hit. I'd suggest you practice so you can get away with rank 1 Q).

Summoner: Flash/Teleport
Items:
Meki, 2 pots, on 605 gold, blow mana, port and get Tear (or tear/boots, or tear/amp tome)
Mejai's (if doing well), if not
Cap
Then depending on if you need defense:
Archangels/BVeil/Sceptre/Void Staff - it's fairly open at this point.

No DFG? No, it's junk IMO and why most Veigar's fail. Get it as a 5th/6th item if you find you need it, but DFG actually is what ruins Veigar. Instead, sink that early gold into more AP and only more AP. More AP in midgame means you can 1-hit wraiths/wolves, and even small golems on passby, and the impact of this is tremendous. I means you will hit level 9 when a Q>W build hits level 7. It means your ganks will be on opponents that are 3-4 levels under you, instead of 2 levels under you. It also means you are WAY better in level 9 teamfights....

I think DFG is a relic of a flawed Max Q skilling build. Instead, try this out and get more early AP by building towards a quick cap with your 1:1 AP ratio dark matter focussed build.

Early Levels

Level 1-5, tower hug. Q when you can, but let them push to tower. Once the lane gets pushed to your tower (and only once it's at your tower - you don't want to push the lane), you W on ranged mobs and autoattack-Q after tower hits a melee mob. Bam, 4 guaranteed CS instantly, and each wave. Now all you have to do for full CS is to time your last hit on the second melee mob to die from tower.

You'll farm your Q SLIGHLY slower than a Q/E/Q/W/Q build, but it really doesn't matter. You'll have WAY better teamfight capability, WAY better CS early/midgame, and will be able to stack Mejai's WAY earlier. You'll enable a free gold/exp farm that Q>W cannot aquire, which pushes this build to the sky.

At level 5, E/W/Q the opponent, that'll take him to half life. Either he bluepills here and you get freefarm and first to 6, or you kill him immediately on 6. You ignore the opponent until level 5.


Farming Wraiths/Wolves:
As soon as you hit level 5 (or level 3 if you have no jungler that needs these camps) you can start 1-shotting Wraiths/Wolves. At level 5 you'll need to W then Q on the big wraith (similar for wolves). You can clear both these camps and make it back in time for your line to be pushed back to your tower. You do not run into the wraith camp, you kill them from the lane-side of the forest - through the trees. You need to be able to run to wolf camp and back to lane before your lane pushes there. It takes some practice to figure out the timing so you can get back in time. Missing your lane coming back to your tower is a horrible mistake. Skip wolves if you need to, until you get the practice down.

This means that you are farming 2 extra Q's every minute (to offset higher CD on your Q versus a Q>W build), and you are getting LOADS more exp in the same time as a Q>W build that just stays mid without clearing jungle.

To put it into perspective, in a 20 min period, clearing these camps on every spawn is roughly 1500 gold. A Q>W build cannot clear these camps as early, and cannot come back to lane in time. They lose out on this free gold and exp. Sure they hit an extra Q here and there (which you replace by Q'ing big wraith/wolve anyways), but that extra 1600ish gold is worth 80 AP (104 with a deathcap!!). That's a monstrous difference.

By level 11 or so, if you play well, you'll be able to 1-hit the small golem camps.

But I've tried this build and I'm not able to 1-hit those camps. What's up?

This means you've fallen behind in your gold farm (last hitting) and/or your Q farm, and/or your leveling. Your item choices should be to maximize your W burst damage. This means stuff like DFG absolutely ruins your capability to do this.

If you cannot 1-hit wraiths/wolves, then keep practicing. Get better at last-hitting so you can get that needlessly large wand faster. This is a wave and you have to stay infront of it. If you manage to get enough CS, then you'll be able to buy that 860 or 1600g wand on your teleport cooldown. This means you'll get to 1-hit wraiths/wolves, which means more gold and exp, which means you can stay infront of their hp scaling. A few slip-ups and you'll fall behind. It's a rolling ball of momentum that you need to stay on top of. But when you do, you'll be seeing 1k AP at the 35 min mark of the game, and you'll be going 20/1/2.


Teamfights

To stay ahead of hp scaling, you build glass cannon to start. So you have to offset that with very defensive play in teamfights.

In teamfights, just play cautiously. You will be a much bigger beast in early teamfights due to your W instead of Q skill priority and Rabadons Cap instead of DFG item build. Feel free to go ganking at 7 or 9, you will be an extremely solid ganker (make sure to clear their wraith camps as you go though!). Your non-R stun rotation takes 75% of their HP, and full-kills with R, even on a non AP champ.

Don't gimp yourself with a quick DFG. Sure you can get a full-kill once a minute, but why not just get a fullkill every W/E cooldown with more AP midgame? If you want DFG because they are getting too tanky endgame, then get it then, but not at the start for heaven's sake! Skip the DFG, go for a quick Cap, this enables your jungle 1-shot farming, which gets you more gold. Snowball effect. DFG instantly turns the possibility of this snowball off.

When solomid, everytime you push tower out, go W wraith camp (Q big wraith) for free gold and Exp. Once W 1-shots them (level 9ish provided you went cap first instead of crappy DFG), you can go 1-shot wolves as well before minions get pushed back to your tower.

By playing so cautiously, you'll be level 11 when other mid is level 9 or 10 (provided you never managed to kill him, and maybe level 7-8 if you did get him), and when laners are 7-8. Go get free kills ganking now, and give mid to someone else to freefarm.

By level 11 or so, your W will almost 1-shot small golems, so feel free to clear those anytime you path by.


/edit So what is wrong with the cookie cutter build?

By maxing Q first, your W hits like a wet noodle in teamfights. You only hit *maybe* one extra Q per minion wave, so your AP farm isn't as much faster as you may think. Having low W means that you cannot farm wraiths/wolves every spawn, and also can't farm small golems around level 11 of so (every spawn), while still being able to get back to turret for when wave gets pushed back.

Getting Q maxed early means your nuke rotation is weaker and you have less chance to 100-Dead someone. Because of this, people grab DFG first. This is flawed thinking... one mistake causing another. Sure now you can insta-kill someone every DFG cooldown, but you are sacrificing massive AP do to so.

Instead, getting a cap first means you hit 300 AP crazy fast (20-25 min mark typically). Getting DFG, you hit this mark more like the 35 min mark, when my build is sitting around 800-1000 AP. Falling behind like this is the exact reason why people think he's bad, and I'm almost certain it's based on Q skilling forcing a bad item choice (DFG) to maintain midgame power - else he falls behind. It's flawed thinking, and the assumption that maxing Q first is correct is the error here that perpetuates throughout the whole build.

Getting junk like RoA is great and all if you are 1800 ELO and need it, but it completely neuters you and is not needed at lower ELOs. Veigar is a glass cannon, so build him as such. There's no halfway here. You either maximize on his raw power, or you fail by not doing so. If you want defense, play defensively. But don't itemize defensively until you absolutely have to. The moment you do, you'll fall behind the power curve and won't be able to insta-gibb people anymore. Substitute defensive items for defensive play.

TLDR: Level W > Q. Get Cap/Mejai's/AA before DFG. Be better than junky cookie cutter bad DFG Veigars that skill Q>W.


/edit, I'm going to post, in this original post, a reply to a common misconception about this guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakalzam View Post
100 is a bit generous, but 60 is incredibly generous. The point of this guide is to spam W to farm. You'll have no mana for Q (even with a Tear) if you do what this guide says and you'll waste your Q a lot of the time due to its poor damage output, so you should recalculate your numbers for the second example to like 10 AP from Q bonus. Also Veigar almost always gets a Tear of the Goddess before anything else (e.g. boots).

No, the point of this guide is not to use W to farm because you are bad at lasthitting. That is an incorrect assumption based on absolutely nothing, just reading a post and thinking you know everything. Try the build out, perfect the build, THEN come post. I'll clear this up though, because it was posted a few times... You are NOT leveling W to farm. You don't "farm' with W. You don't push a lane with W. You only W the ranged minions when they are under the tower. You do this to ENSURE 100% CS from the wave, WHILE Q'ing every cooldown. This build will get 100% CS from each and every single wave, while STILL getting 2 or 3 Q's off per wave (and complimenting that with 2-3 Q's in Wraiths/wolves combo between waves).

Veigar has a fairly weak earlygame, and if anyone comes here posting that they can just sit and freefarm Q from levels 1-5 they are blatently lying. They are getting maybe 50% of the CS from each wave, thinking their Q build is the bomb because they have lower CD that they can't use because they are zoned anyways. This build is 100% safe. You Q once before mobs hit your tower, then you clear the entire wave for full CS while under the safety of your tower. You can't get pushed out of the lane. Then while the wave pushes back out, you are farming wraiths (and later wolves, and even later golems) while you don't miss any EXP and the Q build veigar just sits there waiting to be able to hit again. You are 100% safe from jungler ganks. You hit 6 MUCH faster, and can get a free kill faster. You Q wraiths on the way to support top/bot with ganks, then steal their jungle camps in 1 second, free of threat of getting ganked. This build maximizes CS farm, exp farm, and due to the level difference, the Q-gap closes FAST simply because you hit 13-14 MUCH faster in this build (and in the meantime you mitigate the 25% lost Q spam with 1000ish gold, that I personally value higher regardless). You have more levels because you "jungle" faster, you have more skills (this more dmg from base dmg of nukes), more HP, more Mana, more mana regen, etc.. compared to the other build, at the same point in the game.

You are leveling W because of this one fact:

Provided you are skilled enough to last-hit with rank 1 Q, the difference in higher rank Q is ONLY in cooldown reduction.

Infact, I'd say that this build requires a HIGHER skill cap, since you must last-hit with rank 1 Q only. Infact, I see a Q/E/Q/W/Q build as being the "I'm bad at last hitting, so I'll max Q so that I can last hit easier" build.

Provided you are skilled enough to last-hit with rank 1 (or rank 2) Q, then adding additional points in Q is serving almost NO purpose (only a 1 second shorter cooldown reduction).

The difference between a 5 second versus 7 second (2 ranks) cooldown on Q is 40%. That means you get 40% more Q's in the same time... given perfect cooldown useage. Now factor in that a LOT of that time is wasted due to minion wave respawns, waiting on minion hp to decrease so that you can Q without pushing too much, etc... you'll find that your increased ranks in Q is only giving you maybe 25% more Q's than a W build. So if a W build is getting 100 AP farm, the Q build is only getting 125 AP farm. However, while the W build is trading off 25% fewer Q's, he is gaining max rank W, and is 1-hitting wraiths on the run to wolves, gaining roughly 150 more gold per minute and roughly 300 more exp per minute. He's gaining a 1:1 AP ratio AOE nuke that he uses to DOMINATE teamfights at level 9-13.

And as far as the DFG, that is only a suprior burst choice when you factor in W hitting only 1 opponent. DFG first is great if the laning phase lasts 25 mins. It's MUCH MUCH MUCH worse when teamfights start at level 9. In that case, I'd MUCH rather have a max rank W and Rabadon's Cap.


The only way to test this out is to play it, and play it against other veigars doing the cookie cutter build. I've done so 80+ times. And in doing so, I know that they have about 250 AP at the 25 min mark, and I'm rocking 500+ with at least 2-3 levels higher than them.

And if you think DFG ganks are strong, try ganking bot with a perfect stun (since they aren't expecting you) and a darkmatter that hits both laners. That gank will result in a double-kill MUCH more often than a DFG/Q/R gank.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gunflame

Senior Member

02-10-2011

You are saying DFG is bad and gimping.

You are wrong

/thread

*NOTE: this does not mean your build is bad. It just means you are lying


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Surrealist

Member

02-10-2011

seems like someone pissed in your cheerios.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Superdadd

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
You are saying DFG is bad and gimping.

You are wrong

/thread

*NOTE: this does not mean your build is bad. It just means you are lying
I'm not saying DFG is bad. I'm saying DFG first is bad.

It stops your ability to access freefarm EXP/GOLD, it instantly puts your AP behind jungle camp hp scaling. These impacts are tremendous. It's a flawed assumption based on a flawed build.

Go ahead and get DFG all you want, but skill W > Q so you can access free exp/gold farming, and get DFG as a 4th item, not a 1st item. I bet you'll find you don't even need it anymore though, and getting another AA staff to get into 1200 AP range is the better choice.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

evilgoodguy

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

02-10-2011

Nobody who knows veigar would ever do Q>W after rank 1/2 for farm.

Also, magic pen > ap stacking.

Grab the magic pen mask early + pen boots.

Search for the math if you dont trust me, but ap stacking w/o magic pen is a waste.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RoflTroll

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilgoodguy View Post
Nobody who knows veigar would ever do Q>W after rank 1/2 for farm.

Also, magic pen > ap stacking.

Grab the magic pen mask early + pen boots.

Search for the math if you dont trust me, but ap stacking w/o magic pen is a waste.
You only need Guise if your enemy is tank/building Merc.

If they don't, runes + Sorc Shoe is plenty.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kalshazzak

Senior Member

02-10-2011

the only thing i agree with is maxing Q first is stupid. However, DFG is a fantastic first/second items on viegar not because of the Active(although that gets you 100-0 people sooner than a deathcap), but because of the mana regen and CDR. The active on DFG is also better for gibbing people than a Deathcap unless you have 200 more ap with the Cap than with DFG.(this is a comparison with V having 100 ap with DFG, and the target having 1000 hp)

AA is just a horrible item in general, unless you have a RoA+deathcap already, want the most ap/$, and have 0 need for more survivability because you are stomping that hard.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

USS BUTTPEE

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:

Getting junk like RoA is great and all if you are 1800 ELO
Dude, you don't even have an ELO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theanswer823 View Post
seems like someone pissed in your cheerios.
The guy got ripped apart in another Veigar thread and now he made this. I am amused. The coolest thing about DFG is that it scales with AP.

Quote:
It stops your ability to access freefarm EXP/GOLD, it instantly puts your AP behind jungle camp hp scaling. These impacts are tremendous. It's a flawed assumption based on a flawed build.
What on earth? One-shotting wraiths is not at all critical to Veigar's farming. The sheer amount of utility DFG offers is incredible, it puts you at max CDR (almost) with the appropriate rune setup, and gives you much needed mana regen. Passing that up for 140 more AP which you can farm up anyways is laughable. The fact of the matter is, you can still farm up the jungle camps without one-shotting them. You know that right? Like, you can take the the extra three seconds to poke them with baleful again while auto-attacking them a few times.


Quote:
Nobody who knows veigar would ever do Q>W after rank 1/2 for farm.
I actually find it best to leave Q at level three. That way you've got three seconds, and are farming the ranged creeps every time it is up.

Quote:
this is a comparison with V having 100 ap with DFG, and the target having 1000 hp
And the DFG only gets better the more health they have.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MirrorDarkly

Junior Member

02-10-2011

I can imagine how your jungler would feel after arriving at the wraiths/wolves and finding them gone...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yellow Jester

Senior Member

02-10-2011

It's not about how well you land dark matter. Ranking up E is more important because every person that you stun with it and do not burst down is stunned for extra time. In teamfights, stuns win. 2.5 second AoE stun is worth waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to your team than an extra 200 damage.


123