@Riot: I will give any red $50 that can justify this.

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Morinav

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaolla View Post
or you can just do this to begin with...

if you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and then make a change.
Na na na, Na na na, na na na nah...
Trynd's big weakness is that he's easily countered. That's one of the big things that prevents someone from being selected as a first pick, since your enemy now has 4-5 champion slots left to screw them over.

Hence, if you first pick Tryndamere and end up with a ridiculously good team it's likely because.

1) The Tryndamere player is way, way good. Better than his peers.
2) The enemy team had no idea how to counter-pick Tryndamere, or couldn't muster a decent counter giving the stable of champs available to them.

Even if you're a really good Trynd player, it's still not the best idea to pick him first, and if you do, the rest of the team needs to be well coordinated to make sure a solid comp forms around him. That may be the best thing you can do for your team, but in that case it's a shortcoming of the player, which is completely unavoidable once a matchmaking has placed them on your team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carsonpwns View Post
But isn't that the problem? If a player is best at a champion that isn't "in" the current metagame (ex. Trynd), and he/she isn't 't as good at any of the other "standard" normal first picks (Rammus, Kass, Vlad, Panth, whatever. I don't know who these champions are exactly, but there is a very small pool of "acceptable" champions), then what should the player do? Learn to play a range of popular champions so their team would be happy with their first pick? Of course, players should be flexible and learn how to play a variety of champions, but this isn't gonna happen with every single player we come across.

I don't know if this was brought up somewhere in this 21-page thread (kinda skipped pages 10-21), but I feel that this is a major problem in current ranked solo-Qs =\ Still, I do like the idea of a ready-system
Well, there's not really a "small pool" of acceptable champions. It's actually pretty big, I believe.

And yes, part of being good is being able to play a lot of champions. It's in your interests to get good with a variety of champions in case one of the few you play is picked, banned, or simply unworkable with your comp or against the enemy's.

What you can do, however, is use that valuable first pick to take a good champion and then swap with someone else to get your jungle Tryndamere (I knew there was a point I was forgetting!) So long as you can swap someone, there is literally no reason to pick Tryndamere first. It's a gigantic strategic blunder to squander that first pick slot on Tryndamere if a swap is available instead. By grabbing, say, Shen first and swapping with your 4th or 5th pick to get Tryndamere, you guarantee two things.

1) Your team has a strong tank to support Tryndamere while the enemy is deprived of one.
2) The enemy team doesn't know you're taking Tryndamere, and thus cannot counter-pick against him.

If nothing else, even the insta-locking crowd would probably agree to swapping. So even if I get one guy whose mind is completely, irrevocably, dead set on locking in that Teemo first pick, at the very least I can use the ready check feature to be like, "Dude, I own Teemo. Grab me Shen and I'll swap with you." At that point, the only people who would refuse are tremendous *******s who are trying to **** you over. Even the most mouth breathingest, brainless, vamp scepterist, mid-callingist Teemo would be like, "Oh, ok" so long as they have the champion available to make the swap.

So yeah, for the love of god Beef do us all a favor and at least ask for swaps before locking in Tryndamere first. I don't care how good a Tryndamere player you are, you're making a giant mistake by wasting the tactical importance of first pick. Play Tryndamere. Play him all day long if you want, but at least swap. For everyone's good.


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Beefersist

Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morinav View Post
I don't think it was me, but about a week ago I did have someone pick jungle Tryndamere against a really balls lineup (Most notably they had malzahar and a bunch of tanky dudes), and we had a really rough game. We won, but by the skin of our teeth, and only because were able to hold out until very late game to let Tryndamere catch up and Nasus get exceedingly farmed. He picked him 3rd or 4th pick, though.

Beef, you misunderstand me. I am not saying, "Go down Elementz's list and pick T1 champs." Otherwise, I'd be making threads telling people to do that, not threads telling people to talk to each other during matchmaking.

What I'm trying to do is get people to talk about who can play what and the champions that are being picked.

There are only 10 people in a single match of LoL, each with their own strengths, weaknesses and stable of champions that they play. For these 10 people, taking their unique skills into account, you're going to be left with a limited number of viable, possible team comps for the two teams. These comps are not guaranteed to match a tier list, and they probably won't. In fact, FotM comps often fall apart because the players behind them don't play that champ very well (that and there is no dream comp, it's very easy to blindly pick T1 champs then get counter-picked).

If you have first pick, the best pick for your team will be some balance between.

1) The champion you play best.
2) A champion you know that's also a good foundation for a team.

It is totally possible that Tryndamere's your absolute, best champion and he's the best thing you can offer to a team upon first pick. While that's a slightly terrifying prospect, that's who you should pick (you should probably learn some more champions, though). I'd still like to be able to discuss it with you during champ select, and I'll tell you, "Dude, jungle Tryndamere? That's not a very good idea. Can you play anyone else?". but it's ultimately your choice who you play.

Plus, given that you've taken a shaky first pick, being able to prevent the rest of my team from locking in prematurely would be a tremendous asset. That way we can build a good team to work with Tryndamere and turn a potentially bad situation into a very good one.
Indeed, I have misunderstood you. You make a very good point. I always attempt to stimulate conversation about strategy at the very beginning of a queue, but I have been met with a largley negative result. My attatched picture is a prime example of something that happens all the time.

I appreciate the attitude you offer to a strategy decision by a team-mate you would deem plain bad, something I don't see any where near enough of. We all know we are more inclined to listen to someone who is polite than a complete jackass, providing support to your original point.

I have quite a few champions I feel I can play very well and offer to a team, but Tryndamere is one that I enjoy the most, particularly for solo queue where I feel he has a chance to excel. It's unfortunate the majority of my main champions are considered bans and first picks with the current meta-game. I'm finding myself quite limited to be honest, hence I have been using Tryndamere much more than I usually would. I am so confident in my Tryndamere however, I wish to be a player that provides strong evidence against popular opinion on the champion.

Going back to your original point, I have rarley had the pleasure of being in a team that encourages a decision such as picking Tryndamere, and picked a lineup based on him. Every singe one of those games has been a great success, and I've made a point of thanking them each time afterwards.

EDIT: Reading a couple of posts past the quoted one, I agree with Tryndamere not being a champion I enjoy using a first pick on. I would prefer to pick a champion for another team member (and swap for Tryndamere with them), but due to how terrible people find it to actually speak during the picking phase I have usually just gone ahead with it anyway.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

02-10-2011

I understand the underlying issue but I fail to see it's connection with the lock-in button. If someone is insta-locking jungle tryndamere as first slot why do you think they would pick any differently if the lock-in button wasn't available?

All that would happen is you just sit there and try to persuade them for 30s to get you shen instead until time finally runs out while he's ignoring you.

I think your real concern here is just simple communication between players and optimizing a competitive pre-game.


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Beefersist

Member

02-10-2011

Excellent point Sniperness, I agree!


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Shiroikiri

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Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
For the record, we all sucked as devs at one point or another. Sucking is the first step in being excellent at something.
Lol, just had to post that cause I thought it was great, and I agree completely. (also, programming wise, that's where I am right now too, rofl) Everyone starts by sucking, and everyone has the personal choice to get better or not. Sadly we're seeing many people who play who would rather chose not to get better, but just play the way they want. Maybe they could implement a mentor system or something else so as to attack the problem instead of the result of it.

IMHO, while a good idea, it doesn't solve the true problem. Although it would be convenient now & again if you accidentally hit lock or something like that, I've done it a couple times.

P.S. I think Lima Beans deserves that $50 lol


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Morinav

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
I understand the underlying issue but I fail to see it's connection with the lock-in button. If someone is insta-locking jungle tryndamere as first slot why do you think they would pick any differently if the lock-in button wasn't available?

All that would happen is you just sit there and try to persuade them for 30s to get you shen instead until time finally runs out while he's ignoring you.

I think your real concern here is just simple communication between players and optimizing a competitive pre-game.
Swapping.

If someone insta-locks, you can at least convince them to swap (assuming champions line up) with you unless they're trolling your team.

Swapping's not a thing people commonly thing about in low-mid Elo but it's an incredibly valuable tool.

It's not so much that someone's playing jungle Tryndamere, it's that they're picking them first. Even if they're totally dead set on playing him, no matter what, then at least you can secure another champion that's likely to be picked first.

Edit: I would also like to point out that I love Tryndamere. Such a fun champ to play :V


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HenryF0rd

Senior Member

02-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morinav View Post
No no, please go ahead. I'm not an OS or threading specialist, dude, but barring the presence of hardware threading support, a single core without hardware threading is fairly restricted in what it can do. From what I recall, you're largely limited to instruction level parallelism or SIMD to increase your instructions executed per cycle.
Morinav, the reason I dropped it isn't because I "fear the challenge" or something its because its a pointless discussion that inevitably comes down to some issue of semantics.

With regard to the combo box freezing the machine, we have different levels of tolerance for lack of responsiveness. The animations upon open are fine, the mouse down on selection will lag for an estimated ~350ms. To me, that's annoying and an indication of sloppy coding (an unfortunate concession we often have to make on understaffed projects).

I write high performance software. Mostly realtime systems processing hundreds of thousands of messages a second, but I've also done web apps, etc. There is little point to discuss this kind of thing here. It just muddies the thread. We're approaching the question and the point from different perspectives, you're approaching it from an academic standpoint, I'm approaching it from a practitioners standpoint. And we'll leave it at that.

Anyway, again, I tend to think removing the button would be a double edged sword at best, and at worst be wasted development time on a feature that only shifts frustration from one source to another.

But I do agree with you in that - GENERALLY - its critical that Riot understand how the UI and player feedback can have an effect on how the game is played and the attitudes of the players. Currently, that understanding is not there.