Advanced Tristana?

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Gamecmdr

Senior Member

01-23-2010

why would you get executioners calling on a hero with a healing reduction ability built in?


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Kung Fu English

Senior Member

01-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecmdr View Post
why would you get executioners calling on a hero with a healing reduction ability built in?
For the crit and lifesteal, but point well taken.

You could skip that and get a malady and then you won't need an attack speed item until later.


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smokeD

Senior Member

01-23-2010

You went attack speed tristana first, that's why you fail early game. Just get 2 bf sword berserk greaves, and a doran's blade for early game. You shuold do fine since Rapid Fire is one of your skills you don't need attack speed. You also need a frozen mallet for late game, you turn first Sword into Bloodthirster second into inf edge, than you work on a frozen mallet.


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ctidesm

Senior Member

01-23-2010

Super good players aren't always super special with their characters and they definitely do not have some super special build that if you went you would automatically win 30% more games. They're good cause they recognize imbalanced lanes and abuse the hell out of it, which is why TF is so good. Against players who know what they're doing, you can't always expect to get a kill every couple of minutes unless your lane is completely imbalanced. (imbalanced does not mean easy)

Easiest way to become better isn't to stare at every item on a spreadsheet and carefully max/min over 7 variables and decide which give you the most damage per levels of cost, it's to become better at math inside the game. Playing trist means you have a dangerous but very strong spell in rocket jump. You need to know when you can get the kill, or at least be very close.

Always auto attack harass one shot back. In lane phase always move around and manually click every attack, not only is it the easiest way to last hit, it's also the easiest way to make people pay for getting too close, however, do not get greedy, once you shoot that yi once start moving around again, if he moves back you're not getting that second shot off but more importantly your subjecting yourself to a counter attack which defeats the point of harass, you're supposed to end up with more health than him, not lower his health at any cost, including that of your health. Don't get lazy, harass is fundamental and never give up. Even if it's a heal/high regen lane, keep harassing, keep the pressure on them to stay back to regen, use mana to heal, or dive in to life steal which opens for more harass. Harass > life steal always.

Also recognize who is easier to be harassed, gang that went meki with AoE crit/mspd spell instead of heal is a easy target even though he's ranged. Warmog cho does not mean don't harass me, it means it'll take more. And most importantly if you have a hard lane, look for open opportunities to harass, even if the window is tiny. (something like a taric/tf or any double mana manip lanes) Don't just sit passively back, the best time is when they're super aggressive and pushed to your tower, instead of auto attacking your creeps to clear them faster, it's the best time to lower the lane opponents to half health.

Spell harass light early, more late, lvl 1 spells don't hurt, but why waste mana regen? Just don't do it too often, save enough for a nice burst to kill them.

Have a plan. Don't go, well... I have full mana, lets just exp. shot and jump in and hope for the best cause they're at half health. Also don't go, "oh ****, blitz crank lane, he's at 10% but he has mana shield :O I can't possible get the kill" when he's partner is like a OOM annie or something. Wtf can an OOM annie do to you? Wtf do you have to fear from a blitz that JUST wasted his pull/punch combo? Good kats abuse this all day in solo lanes, once your nukes on cooldown there's nothing to fear, know this. That's why mediocre TFs fail against good players, they're so excited they got gold timing down they're wondering why they still get harassed more than they're opponents? Well maybe cause the good player recognizes once your gold card/wild card combo was wasted on a creep lane he has a 5 second window to do whatever he wants, which, btw, is a huge window. Ofc, this doesn't mean go in everytime, recognize opportunities.

And finally, recognize targets in team fights. Yes, don't target the tank is a good philosophy, but if the tank is malphite and he charges your team through a wall that his team has to walk around, but because of your awesome range you can hit his carry, lets say ashe, yeah, prioritize dps>tank, but in this case it's obvious you guys can kill malphite in 2 secs and move on. Stay calm in team fights and do not chase someone through people. Yeah, it's satisfying to kill that annie, and yes, that annie if left alive could screw your team, but if you chase you could die AND leave the annie alive. Kill **** on the edge even if it's not the best target, yes, that ashe is dangerous but that does not justify targeting her if no one else is. Yeah, you want to hurt the ashe, but it is more important to kill someone, even if it is the tank. Focus one target, don't think you know better than your team even if you do, just focus someone, better than leaving tank at 1/10th health and ashe at 50% health cause you thought you knew better than hitting turtule. (granted, if 4 people are aiming turtle on your team you lost anyways, but if it's a soft tank like blitz or something you can get rid of a very annoying double stun/AoE) Don't just dismiss a tank if he happens to be on the edge.


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Valduran

Senior Member

01-23-2010

Nice advice ctidesm. It's tips like this that I was really looking for.
Some of that will be very helpful in being more confident and decisive in what actions I choose to take throughout the course of the game, and of course you're right that the most important part of being a good player is knowing what to do and when.

Some questions about harassment: Against squishie or basic meleers I usually have a great time harassing and almost always end up with a solo kill or two by level 6 or 7, and against others I'm still able to keep their health down, but there are 3 heroes that I really have a hard time with: Udyr, Sivir, and Heimerdinger.

By about level 5 Udyr becomes so unharassable with his turtle shield and mana regen that it's a complete waste of shots to even try, because he'll just happily farm away while shrugging off your attacks entirely. What do you suggest? Do I ignore him and focus on farming as well?
Sivir is a big problem because she can easily and effortlessly outfarm me, all the while keeping me on my toes with her boomerang attack, which sometimes gets lucky and deals out a big chunk of damage. I rarely die against her, but I almost always get pushed back and sometimes even let my turret get destroyed.
Heimerdinger's turrets make you suffer for trying to harass him, and also enable him to eventually outfarm you, but destroying the turrets doesn't do any good cause he can replace them just as fast. Suggestions?


@Everyone Else: Thanks for your input! Some of you had some interesting build ideas that I will look into, but on the other hand I'm starting to do ALOT better by going Ar. Pen. and straight damage as early as possible instead of worrying about attack speed and crit early on. That 100% crit chance idea you had was very interesting though, Kung Fu English.


@Bagga: Why are you flexing your e-peen in thread that is merely a humble request for advice? And why the hell were you telling me to play Corki when you have Tristana as your main? If you want to contribute something, stop being so condescending please.


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Noctred

Member

01-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valduran View Post
there are 3 heroes that I really have a hard time with: Udyr, Sivir, and Heimerdinger.
Sivir is the best farmer in the game - maybe challenged by Anivia when she has enough mana to sustain Glacial Storm. You won't out-farm Sivir, and trying to harass her will probably just get you raped by Ricochet. Unless she puts herself way out of position, I usually just focus on farming and keeping my tower up, and if she pushes all the way up to my tower then that's when I might try for some harassment (or just call for a gank).

As for Heimerdinger - good luck. The turrets aren't even the problem. His rockets induce a lot of rage and laning against a rocket-stacking Heimer is beyond irritating - the huge range, the huge damage, the low cooldown, and them being unavoidable (and AoE) gives him some of the dumbest early game harrassment I've ever seen against the majority of lanes. He loses usefulness late game, but his early game can easily snowball in terms of how quickly he can force a recall (over, and over, and over again).

Against Udyr, just farm and take advantage of opportunities where he gets cocky.


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ctidesm

Senior Member

01-23-2010

Agree with above, some other advice:
Potions aren't just for the beginning of the game, coming back to lane with another 2-3 potions means 400-600 health, that's substantial. Sivir commonly go chalice first which means spell harass hurts a lot less, but the cool thing is they go chalice -> boots, no health regen at all. If you pack in some health regen then you can basically out regen her, harass, she'll hit you back, regen it back (doran's, vamp pots, w/e) and every time she goes to boomerang through your entire creep wave you can go up for a free shot, she has no way of healing this back so it will add up. The real problem is that she always leaves you at a creep disadvantage (she has more creeps) which is annoying when she outranges you at early levels so her creeps hit you. However when that large wave gets to your tower, don't auto attack and try to clear the wave, the tower will do that for you. Walk around, last hit, and get in free shots on siv. Creeps don't do that much damage to your tower so forget about them, the longer they're there the better for you, focus on getting gold and hitting her.

Your not gonna push through heim, however, he can't kill you. Pack regen, a lot of it, that will make his harass worthless. 3 health potions is an extra 600 health he'll have to try and grenade/rocket through... not gonna happen, at the very worst you both go back to town at the same time, him for mana you for health.

As for udyr, keep shooting. I'm not just saying that for an easy answer, but, I mean, what else are you gonna do? You can't last hit every time your aspd allows you to attack and, well, he's there in melee range. I know it's frustrating as hell hitting him and seeing either no damage or a tiny bit of his health go down, but it adds up. You may not be able to get him into killable range ever, but keeping him even at 60% health will make him think before he goes in. You usually only see it from your side, annoyingly clilcking him and seeing no effect, but from his side if every other time he goes in, even with shield on, you start shooting him, he's gonna get just as annoyed as you. Udyrs are used to people leaving him alone cause he has mad regen and semi-spammable shield, don't give him this confort, keep him out of max health range. If he is maxing turtle though, completely unload on him before you go back. Lead in with rocket-> exp. shot -> ult, then go home (make sure you have mana or it could turn ugly) Sure, he can regen it back, but he has to do that instead of something more useful (like going back to buy also, gank top etc.) Udyr right now is very annoying to play against for any hero, you just gotta burst through it to open kill opportunities or sit back and make him earn his mana/health so he's tentative.

Playing a carry you obviously put last hitting over everything else, but that's only 6 shots a wave, there's really nothing else to do between those last hitting shot except harass, move around and watch minimap. Early pushing doesn't make sense cause trist isn't the best hero for that, yeah, you can shoot a few to lower the creeps for easy pushing later, but the rest of the time you got nothing better to do. And 40 damage hits barely dents even annie, but 5 free shots is 200 damage... Start thinking long term.

You may have noticed that I basically said if the lane is hard pack regen, yeah, it sucks delaying your items, but you can stay in lane through a bunch of harass. If it really calls for it, call a gank, but unless it's organized it's generally not advised. Make sure if you call a gank call someone you know can kill your opponent. (basically anyone for siv, huge burst with you at near full mana for udyr, and someone who can clear turrets with range spells or consume or something so even a fail gank will hurt heim) If they fail gank and they never had a chance (a tryn without liz for example) it's not their fault, it's yours, you should've called a better gank. Of course, there's always the switch lanes possibility, but, again, not advised if it's not premade. Soloing against two melee is probably easier than soloing vs. heim, and 2 people against 1 siv is hella easy, against udyr is easy if they got the stuns, and against heim they have a better chance at never letting him set up. But yeah, potions are good and cheap, buy them, makes laning easier.


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xrats

Senior Member

01-24-2010

Vs enemies that i can get i do the following:


1)Changing lanes.Eats some time but can be very effective.Unfortunately Tristana isnt a well-balanced player at early levels.She pawns some heroes but she is pawned by some others real badly.Learn the heroes on which u have the upper hand early on and use it to advance early.

2)Focus on defend and dont try to spam the enemy.He is stronger than u at this point but not later.Patience is the key.I usually get regen life and wait till i get wits end,my first item.Then with my range and mana burn i can turn the favor of battle to my side.

3)Ask some help to gang the enemie.If he gets killed u ll win some time to farm and push more.As the levels keep coming u become stronger than the others and your range is advancing.


As for the early dmg,its not bad but i have tried both it and attack speed and second works best for me on most occasions.Your first skill isnt good vs good players so dont rely on it for attack speed early on.I havent met a good enemie who hasnt a way to counter this.Believe me its pretty easy.

Its cool when an enemie approaches to hit something and he loses the 1/3 of his mana before he even understands what happened.Its not life what hurts much.Its mana.Think of it.You would want to have an enemy with much life and no mana vs u or the opposite?


Without mana enemies are useless vs your range.They cant get u or spam u.With low life and much mana they can still kill u.Dont forget that mana can still heal enemies,slow u,stun u or help them escape from u.Hit points doesnt.You dont care to kill the enemie.You need tou push and get towers.THats more important.If you want to kill enemies for more gold then u wont do it alone.You ll do it with the rest of your team.


Something last.Wits end also rules here.Either leaves enemies without mana in a 5v5 battle when u push and they defend and vice versa or leaves a stunned or slowed enemie with mana in a matter of seconds.That means that he is totally useless and he wont have any means to stop u or escape from your team.In battles you can target also mages with it first.

A good example of it vs zilean.He waits to do his ulti to save a low hp enemie when he realises he doesnt have the mana to cast it anymore.I just love this item.

If u dont get a kill from it u ll just have the enemie useless and that counts a lot .


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Valduran

Senior Member

01-25-2010

Thanks for all the help guys! I've watched myself grow as a player by a huge amount over the past few days through focused effort and your input. The only questions I have left are related to my rune build. The biggest one I have is how much Armor Pen. is too much? What kind of balance between Ar. Pen. and Crit. Dmg. should I have? The only crit items I usually get are Phantom Dancer and Infinity edge, so I'm not a massively crit oriented build, but I still do end up with about 63% crit chance.

@xrats: lol. I love Wit's End for situational use. It's so fun to make that evil scary Karthus into a helpless paperdoll.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-25-2010

Quote:
I usually have a great time harassing and almost always end up with a solo kill or two by level 6 or 7, and against others I'm still able to keep their health down, but there are 3 heroes that I really have a hard time with: Udyr, Sivir, and Heimerdinger.
There are many ways to harass. As far as those specific matchups ...

1. Udyr is a joke. Tristana is his hard-counter in a lane. The trick here is two parts: a) Explosive shot his ass to reduce his heal in turtle stance; b) Autoattack harass him into the ground.

Note: Pure AA harass means you need to avoid taking creep damage. When the enemy's creep wave is small, run around the side, toss a hit, then step away (creeps will de-aggro). There will be times when it's not a great idea to harass (creep wave building up, etc). This is when you punish Udyr's attempt to lifesteal with explosive shot. He will hit Turtle to get the absorb shield buffing and then AA creeps -- let him, for a moment. The life he regens will be nerfed, and in a few moments the absorb shield will expire, then pew pew his ass again.

Note2: Keep Udyr down at level 1, 2, 3, 4. He can't get level 3 Turtle until level 5. At lower ranks, his stance swap costs a ton of mana, which means he'll be out of juice in no time. Tristana is so hard-counter to Udyr that you should be able to kick him out of XP range for a hell of a long time. Also, do not autoattack your creeps if you can help it. Keeping the creep "line of scrimmage" away from Udyr's tower will make it even harder for him to pick up any levels. If I get 1v1 Trist v. Udyr, I go balls-deep harass at level 1, and will blow Summoner spells early if it gives a good health/mana tradeoff. This matchup is one of Udyr's worst.

Note3: In the event that Udyr does keep pace with levels (without running completely OOM etc), you can still keep him down with AA harass and timely explosive heal debuff of Udyrrape. Of course, if you were able to do this effectively earlier, he would never get to level 5, etc .

Quote:
Sivir is a big problem because she can easily and effortlessly outfarm me, all the while keeping me on my toes with her boomerang attack, which sometimes gets lucky and deals out a big chunk of damage.
This is the finesse of harassment -- threat and latent threat. So Sivir can nail you with a Boomerang; that's fine. Just flirt with your AA harass range until she blows it (you outrange her AAs), dodge it, then run in to punish her more. Fake your Explosive shots to make her blow her bubble early for a massive mana deficit. Ensure you land explosive if she pulls back to pop an HP pot (if you have a mobility Summoner spell, use it to nerf her HP pot -- it's that effective). As you move around the battlefield to dodge Boomerangs and get harass position, shoot creeps as well to regen HP (but don't plant yourself).

Quote:
(Heimerdinger) Suggestions?
Pew pew his turrets early while creeps are tanking them is your only real option. Heimer's a ***** against non-range-AOE lanes if he spams turrets in good locations.

Other than that, play defensively and get some gank action on (in other lanes, or mega gank Heimer with your team).

One last note: the heal debuff is key -- most opponents come with some flavor of HP regen, and if you can have your debuff on them when they use it, it is crippling.

-------------------------

As far as items go:

1. As already stated, Tristana gets a big ASPD pump for mid-late game. ASPD after Greaves is not a priority unless it's a counter-item. Aka Last Whisper on armor-stacking opponents. Black Cleaver really does work well as a "core" item.

Past that your main decision is probably Last Whisper versus Phantom Dancer. Percentage ArPen (that stacks inefficiently with Black Cleaver, but whatever) versus critx. PD works well with IE against moderate armor folks (since you have BC). LW works well against enemies that are stacking heavy armor.

2. Tristana builds for scaling lategame damage, which means raw ASPD/Crit/damage/ArPen. Not Wit's/Malady/etc. This is generally because her ASPD pump is early and quick, making common ASPD+proc items somewhat less efficient early game than they are on many other champs.

3. No Phage. Is like training wheels. On the flip side, if your team needs it, then your team needs it.

4. For survivability ... if your opponents have highly mobile teleporting folks with over 9000 ms, Frozen Mallet is solid for raw HP (with additional utility). Banshee's Veil against Flash-CC combos (Destiny/Gate/GC/Blitz flash in/Grab/donkeypunch BECAUSE THEY REALLY HATE YOU, but-you-could-still-RJ-out-of-part1-lol) and such. Note that most of this still falls under the category of "L2 position to avoid most of this stuff, and you still have Rocket Jump so fail less and buy moar deeps". However, in some games, it just makes sense, so keep these in mind as go-tos for non-DPS.