Ryze as of 1/19/10

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PrawnWonton

Senior Member

01-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xalerwons View Post
You know with maxed CD reduction he can go Q, W, E, R (get this before Q lands), wait 1 sec, Q, 1 sec, E, 1 sec, W

So he needs to be alive for at least 4 seconds to go through all of his abilities twice, which is well over 2000 aoe damage without any AP besides his ultimate.

This. Max cooldown reduction and his ult is never 'blown'. Combined with his passive, it'll be up every 15 seconds or less. Which basically means all the time.


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zastrozzi

Member

01-22-2010

I've been playing around with Ryze a lot, and there is something to be said for getting a Deathfire Grasp. Really, the synergies are pretty obvious, as his ult grants it an easy 3.5-7% damage boost, and spell flux can increase the damage depending on the number of bounces, as well.

It is also a decent choice simply because Ryze doesn't have very good burst damage. Oh, he can certainly chain cast spells from here to infinity, but he just doesn't put out the numbers that a dedicated nuking hero will. I find that if you can work Deathfire into your spell rotation, your threat level increases by quite a bit.

Until Riot makes some better AP items, Ryze shouldn't really be stacking AP, though. The fact is that A) Ryze doesn't have enough DPS to kill carries before they can close, B) Ryze's base stats are ****, and C) Ryze has no escape mechanism other than Rune Prison. CDR is pretty easy to get, but I think that AP should be secondary to survival.

I also would advise against the Chalice. Ryze wants to stack mana to boost Overload's damage, which means that each spell you cast reduces it less which means that the Chalice's mana regen effect triggers less. I'd rather just gorge on mana and just refuel at the base every so often.

If I were to go for a Deathfire Ryze, I'd probably grab-

-Sapphire Crystal + 2 health pots to start
-Rod of Ages (much needed survivability)
-Mercury's Treads (Magic Resist)
-heart of gold (cheap armor and Hp that generates gold as you go along)
-Deathfire Grasp (cdr and another nuke to add to rotation)
-Haunting Guise (max out cdr, increase ability damage)
-Abyssal Scepter (synergizes with Deathfire, increases ability damage, maxes out Magic Resist)

2 plus health items, one of which has armor on it. 2 plus magic resist items, one providing an aura that increases the DPS of your abilities, your allies abilities, and the Deathfire Grasp. The only thing that I would be worried about would be the lack of +mana, but if you start a Zhonya's in the last slot, you should be fine.

The problem is, the best CDR item right now is the Glacial Heart, as it provides Ryze with much needed mana and is the only mage-friendly source of armor. No matter how good the Deathfire is, the fact is that a Glacial Seal leads to a much better rounded Ryze.

I've also been toying with the thought of skipping the RoA for a Leviathan. It is much cheaper and I don't find myself dieing much as Ryze (always having a snare off cooldown helps). Assuming you can get, say, 10 stacks by the end of the game, it is the best health item to get.


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Grinningsphinx

Senior Member

01-22-2010

here are the actual AP conversions for Ryze:

Ryze-The Rogue Mage
Overload 0.45
Rune Prison 0.4 (every 0.4 seconds, 1.2 over 2.4 seconds)
Spell Flux 0.33 (per hit, anywhere from 0.33 to 1.65)


FYI, my understanding of Overpower is that its only looking at your max mana possible, not your current mana..there is a case of stacking mana with Tear to AA staff to buff Overpower yes, but i find the constant spell flux harass from Chalice to be very good at denying creeping and incidental damage to champs. Like i said, only use it if your having mana issues. I dont use any mana regen runes, but do have it in my masteries.

I like to spam it so i can make some kinda attempt at farming.



Also FYI, with my build/masteries/runes i DO have the ability to kill most melee carries before they close, if its a 1v1 situation, but only AFTER i get the Deathfire. And my escape is always always flash and wait for RP to cycle...works nearly always 1 v 1 as well assuming theres a tower in reasonable distance to run too.


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zastrozzi

Member

01-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinningsphinx View Post
FYI, my understanding of Overpower is that its only looking at your max mana possible, not your current mana..there is a case of stacking mana with Tear to AA staff to buff Overpower yes, but i find the constant spell flux harass from Chalice to be very good at denying creeping and incidental damage to champs. Like i said, only use it if your having mana issues. I dont use any mana regen runes, but do have it in my masteries.

I like to spam it so i can make some kinda attempt at farming.
While I agree that farming is important, I question why you do so with Spell Flux. I much prefer to last hit/harass with Overpower, as it is cheaper to cast, stronger, and you get much better fine control over it. The entire idea behind the early lane phase is to last hit as often as possible without pushing to the opponent's tower. When you are within spitting distance of the enemy tower, you have almost no chance to gank, you are very gankable yourself, and at low levels, the damage you deal to towers is mostly irrelevant. My gameplan for the first 10-12 minutes of the game is to not die and make as much money as possible, not to break towers.

Spell Flux has its place, but in my books, that place is applying a debuff and cooling down the rest of his skills. Both those things can be done with spell flux at level 1, when it only costs 60 mana. The problem with using it for damage is that it jumps randomly, and it needs something to jump off of. If the enemy is in a cluster of mobs, you may only tag them with it once. If they are alone, you need to be suicidally close to get it to bounce. If the enemy is under 50% health, stunned, and I have Overpower cooled down, then I will try it. Otherwise, I'd prefer to use it as a light debuff/CDR ability and kite whatever I'm fighting.

Meanwhile, Overpower gets 10% of your mana as damage. This is huge. If you spend 1000 gold on a Chalice, and I spend 1000 gold on a Godess' Tear, you will be regaining mana faster than me. 2.5 mana every 5 second, and more if you start spamming abilities. However, my overpower will be dealing between 35 and 95 (!) more damage than yours. Not only is the Tear doing what you payed for, but it is also giving you a damage boost that goes up to 4 blasting rods in power. The Chalice works best for heroes with small mana pools that are OOM a lot. Ryze benefits from stacking mana and having cost effective abilities. It just doesn't feel like a very good fit to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinningsphinx View Post
Also FYI, with my build/masteries/runes i DO have the ability to kill most melee carries before they close, if its a 1v1 situation, but only AFTER i get the Deathfire. And my escape is always always flash and wait for RP to cycle...works nearly always 1 v 1 as well assuming theres a tower in reasonable distance to run too.
The problem that I see there is "most" coupled with "1v1", "flash", and "towers" in that paragraph. Ryze without any survival items suffers from incidental death syndrome. In a team fight, Ryze can often be killed by accident by powerful AoEs and anything less than perfect positioning. Letting a fight come down to "blow all my cooldowns and hope he falls down" is not exactly, in my opinion, a good strategy. You can't always dictate the particulars of an encounter (what if flash is on cooldown? What if they have flash, too? What if you are trying to push the enemy side? What if they have a friend in the bushes? What if they have magic resist items and you can't burst them down?), so I'd rather build around the thought that I can live for 4-10 second in a fight and get 2-3 stuns off.

Coincidentally, I level Rune Prison first. I mean, if your build works, it works. I just don't like the thought of playing a paper hero.


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Grinningsphinx

Senior Member

01-23-2010

Oh i will certainly agree with you that my Ryze is quite paper yes...Its quite important to let your iniators lead off the fight and take those big hits first... I will also say that I die quite often in those fights, simply because i think people still target Ryze out over other casters, but the massive burst i deliver means that 90% of the time we win it and go on to push a tower or two. I dont see Ryze with his current range on his spells as being the one to outlast people....you need to get suicidally close to use Q and W anyway.


As a way of comparison, going the AA staff route to build around 2250 mana will net you about 250-270 extra damage to Overpower.....Next time I play im goign to go that route and see what my lvl 5 overpower is hitting for... I just never thought it was that big a deal since most of the damage i do comes from Spellflux in team fights. Also, with the change to Ryze auto-attack its pretty much a blow all your CDs and hope there dead or running...Gone are the days when my AA hits for 200 a pop and I can push down a tower with Mage lighting>





The reason i farm with E is because normally its on a 6-7 second cooldown...when its that fast i burn through mana quite quickly and often need the chalice....it also has a longer range then the rest of his spells so most times im landing the hits near the oppossing champs...I never cast it unless im assured of a last hit or at least one bounce to a champ. As well, after lvl 7 or 8 i cant often last hit two or maybe even 3 creeps whereas Overpower would still only be hitting one.

I also have a different take on laning....I very much like to push them too there tower and keep them there to prevent them from farming any decent amount of gold. I rarely have trouble getting ganked from behind as Im always on a vent team and always looking out for roamers and junglers. Flash and a defensive rune prison is often enough to let me get away especially since im usually laned with a decent lane partner (Blitzcrank) and as well all know, no one likes to push against a good Blitz.

I put 2 lvls in rune prison so that it holds for 1.2 seconds...usually im upping the damage on Spell Flux.


I have a complaint on the test forums about how buggy the **** bounce is though...wow....Soooo many times ive never gotten bounces when i clearly should have


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zastrozzi

Member

01-23-2010

Ah, I love it when you find someone playing the same character completely differently than I do. I find myself kiting the **** out of people with Ryze, as Rune Prison is on such a low CD thanks to his passive. Run in, Rune Prison, dump the rest of spells, start running towards your team/away from a team fight. If they chase you, you can Prison them again 4 seconds later. If they don't chase, reposition and, well, repeat. Hit and run, hit and run. Of course to do this, you need to stack survival items, as you'll be taking hits as you run off.

Granted, I'm certainly front ending a whole lot less damage than you are, but I usually end games with only 2-3 deaths.

Except that one game where I disconnected and got back to find myself 4 levels lower than everyone on the opposing team. Feh.


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Grinningsphinx

Senior Member

01-23-2010

Cool lol....I die nearly every feam fight heh, but my team nearly always wins them because theyve taken my burst and have gimped MR for the duration im alive. It is cool to hear of different playstyles. I never had any luck kiting with Ryze because of the abysmal movement speed with Sorc shoes.


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Solution Nine

Member

01-23-2010

I'm really liking Veil, Merc Treads, DFG, then building Glacial Shroud or Zhonyas depending on what would be better.


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zastrozzi

Member

01-24-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinningsphinx View Post
Cool lol....I die nearly every feam fight heh, but my team nearly always wins them because theyve taken my burst and have gimped MR for the duration im alive. It is cool to hear of different playstyles. I never had any luck kiting with Ryze because of the abysmal movement speed with Sorc shoes.
That is why I don't typically take them. I'm a big fan of Mercury's Treads, as they shorten slows and such by 30%, and when you are kiting, snares are what will kill you. I rarely have a problem kiting simply due to the fact that I can stun someone every 4-6 seconds at range. That is usually enough for to kite one enemy to death, and if I pull 2-3 after me in a team fight, well, then my team wins.

While magic penetration is always good to have, there are better places to have it than on your boots. I like the Void Staff with Ryze, as it gives you extra mana, ability power, and all the magic pen you will ever need. Abyssal Scepter is a better choice if you are taking the Deathfire, though, as the aura will buff the damage on the Deathfire, as well.

This is also why I typically take Ghost and Clairvoyance as my summoner spells. Ghost (with the mastery) has a crazy long duration, and Clairvoyance means I rarely run face first into a ganking situation.


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Jumex

Member

01-24-2010

While I agree with a lot of the comments emphasizing getting tanking and CD reduction items, I believe getting a mejai's and a guardian angel is one of the best combos for ryze. My item build is usually tear, boots of swiftness, catalyst, mejai's, glacial shroud, then upgrading all of them. Using mejai's as your only ap source is pretty effective if you can get kills.


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