List your top tier champions

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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by sAviOrZelda View Post
From solomid
That list does not at all represent the majority of solomid's opinions btw.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

01-21-2010

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Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
Curious about why Alistar, Annie, and Anivia aren't in your list of high tier characters.

It's not really fair to compare what a champ has over Twitch as a carry since Twitch is about a tier about the others (or maybe half a tier nowadays). Better to compare Tristana with Corki IMO, where the comparison is a little better. She's better at ganking and building killing, has a longer ranged auto-attack, and has an interrupt/knockback over Corki, but Corki has generally higher damage output and a smoother transition to carry status (they both play as casters early game). Corki has great long range harassment but it's more dangerous for him to go into real killing range in a team fight.

What about Blitz?
I'm not entirely sure about Ali. He lost a huge chunk of pushing ability when promote got taken out but I guess I could accept him as being high. Still not sure though. Annie should have been on my list, my mistake for not including her. Crazy damage and stun, high enough tier for me. Anivia is on the fence for me also thanks to her passive and AoE slow/stun but her stun is slow that you can easily dodge it and her Ult deals minimal damage while being rather short ranged.

And yes, it is fair to compare Twitch and Tristanna because the two have similar mechanics.

Buster Shot -> Expunge
Rapid Shot -> Ambush/Spray and Pray
Both Auto-attack builds

Corki focus on Trinity Force instead making him a much different kind of carry than Trist or Twitch, if at all a carry. And before you say but Corki and Trist have jumps, those are used to either run or catch up to an opponent while ganking, something Twitch can do via ambush/debilitating poison anyways.

Also I have to disagree with Corki transitioning sooner to carry, if at all ever becoming one. Tristanna becomes a carry very quickly once rapid shot is maxed and you have your first BF sword. Corki tends to rely on his spells the whole game to proc TForce. Plus a 1.5 second cooldown 275 AoE missile seems more caster than DPS to me. xD


Blitz, although being able to initiate arguably better than anyone in the game, isn't high tier to me. It's not that hard to just stay behind minions/dodge/stay out of range. If you're smart you shouldn't ever be getting rocket-grabbed. Pass.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
Oh god, Nunu? Give me a break. The two most common summoner spells in the game make his Ult useless. (Cleanse and Flash if you didn't know). Not to mention he can't do **** after having used said Ultimate except apply the rather annoying slow ice shard, useful only for chasing, but wait, it was 4v5 anyways since everyone escaped your ult and made you useless so you won't be chasing at all.
Nunu's always difficult to place because of the high counterability but also high reward of his ult. Cleanse isn't all THAT common these days but Flash definitely is. That being said, Flash has a long CD and some may have burned it already. Also, landing the full ult on just one person is enough to turn a battle around.

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High tier has too many characters in it imo. Alistar I can accept, but Shaco is too squishy and is really only an early gank master. Can't do anything in teamfights before 3 shots from any carry kills him.

Soraka, again, great early game but when a Malphite rams your whole group in and the fight begins what can she do besides silence someone for a couple seconds? Never seen a pro Nidalee but I can see her being good.

I almost included Kassadin on my list but thought it might be biased since he's my most played, haha.
Shaco is squish for team fights, but he can really snowball up a game to where his squishiness doesn't even hurt anymore. Furthermore, he's one of the best junglers in the game - neutral control is extremely important and he's good at it. At worst he's in the higher part of mid tier.

I personally don't think a large high tier is bad, because the perception that such a large number of champions is good for high level play just means a lot of champions have something good to bring. I think the question is whether "high tier" should be shifted to "mid tier" and "top tier" to "high." I don't think so, because in most competitive games, high tier means a character/race/whatever that's picked often at high levels, but not quite as dominant as the top.

I wouldn't kid anyone by putting Kassadin anywhere above mid.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Actually, there is something bad with having too many characters in high tier. By definition, half the cast needs to be "low" tier, (including the lower half of mid tier.) There's already 23 characters in Top and High combined in that list. Unless you're planning on a 3 man mid tier or something, that list is flawed.

I'm also liking your counter-arguments for Nunu and Shaco, more so for Shaco than Nunu. Nunu still seems like a one-trick-pony to me, especially since aside from getting out of his ult, you can cancel it via stun or silence. Yes I know he goes Banshee's but that's easily drained in a team fight, especially when he places himself in the center of it.

Shaco I might reconsider, but again, it seems kind of lucky/inconsistent to do well with him and more determined by mistakes enemies make rather than what you do.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
I'm not entirely sure about Ali. He lost a huge chunk of pushing ability when promote got taken out but I guess I could accept him as being high.
He's still **** good at maintaining a push. Has a good tanking cooldown for initiating/tanking towers and is extremely dangerous to be close to, which makes positioning to target his team difficult and potentially dangerous. He's definitely high tier imo.

Quote:
And yes, it is fair to compare Twitch and Tristanna because the two have similar mechanics.

Buster Shot -> Expunge
Rapid Shot -> Ambush/Spray and Pray
Both Auto-attack builds

Corki focus on Trinity Force instead making him a much different kind of carry than Trist or Twitch, if at all a carry. And before you say but Corki and Trist have jumps, those are used to either run or catch up to an opponent while ganking, something Twitch can do via ambush/debilitating poison anyways.
Corki doesn't necessarily always use TForce, though it probably is the most versatile build for him. If Buster Shot is comparable to Expunge we might as well say Rockets/PBomb are similar there too. Corkis can build for auto-attack with Gatling Gun as the primary damage ability as well, though that's more AoE centric obviously.

If we compare Twitch and Tristana, we have one champion that's generally better than the other. That doesn't mean Tristana is below high tier, because Twitch is still the best carry and still possibly a tier (or half a tier) above the others.

Quote:
Also I have to disagree with Corki transitioning sooner to carry, if at all ever becoming one. Tristanna becomes a carry very quickly once rapid shot is maxed and you have your first BF sword. Corki tends to rely on his spells the whole game to proc TForce. Plus a 1.5 second cooldown 275 AoE missile seems more caster than DPS to me. xD
Not sooner, smoother. Tristana is strong around level 6 where Buster Shot does a lot of damage and ganking with jump -> a few attacks -> BShot is very effective. Buster Shot's damage doesn't scale very well, so Tristana becomes weak as those spells do relatively less damage and she doesn't have enough big items yet. Once she gets those items, she becomes beast thanks to her great auto-attack and mobility option.

Corki, on the other hand, can be effectively played as a caster with Sheen/TForce for almost the entire game. He gets very strong at 6 and stays strong without a big DPS item for a long time. He doesn't have the period of weakness that Tristana does mid game.

Quote:
Blitz, although being able to initiate arguably better than anyone in the game, isn't high tier to me. It's not that hard to just stay behind minions/dodge/stay out of range. If you're smart you shouldn't ever be getting rocket-grabbed. Pass.
Even if you don't land a lot of Rocket Grabs, the fact that he forces positioning and such careful laning makes him strong just for being present.


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IMSavior

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Senior Member

01-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
Oh god, Nunu? Give me a break. The two most common summoner spells in the game make his Ult useless. (Cleanse and Flash if you didn't know). Not to mention he can't do **** after having used said Ultimate except apply the rather annoying slow ice shard, useful only for chasing, but wait, it was 4v5 anyways since everyone escaped your ult and made you useless so you won't be chasing at all.

High tier has too many characters in it imo. Alistar I can accept, but Shaco is too squishy and is really only an early gank master. Can't do anything in teamfights before 3 shots from any carry kills him.

Soraka, again, great early game but when a Malphite rams your whole group in and the fight begins what can she do besides silence someone for a couple seconds? Never seen a pro Nidalee but I can see her being good.

I almost included Kassadin on my list but thought it might be biased since he's my most played, haha.
shacos a great champion for coming in late, fearing the whole team and 2 shotting the 1-2 enemy dpsers before they have any idea whats going on

not to mention ganking is a very important part of the game, keep them low enough from ganks and you can faceroll them

amumu + nunu is a great team

amumu holds while nunu rapes

yeti buff on your carry / dps is insane

ice shard is an annoying as hell harass and chase ability plus pretty good nuke

flash + cleanse arent insta c/d

you try to catch people with the c/ds down with nunu

1-2 people just run from a gank waste the spell(s)

catch up with yeti buff, slow with ulti / killwith ulti or slow enough for team to catch up

many uses other then its damage

cast it in a team fight, people will race to either cc you or gtfo

gives your team time to attack without being attacked


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Quote:
I personally don't think a large high tier is bad, because the perception that such a large number of champions is good for high level play just means a lot of champions have something good to bring. I think the question is whether "high tier" should be shifted to "mid tier" and "top tier" to "high." I don't think so, because in most competitive games, high tier means a character/race/whatever that's picked often at high levels, but not quite as dominant as the top.
Tiers don't have to be equal in numbers by definition. For example, Marvel vs Capcom 2 has a very small top/high tier list because only a few characters are effective as point fighters. Everyone else is pretty much destroyed by the top and high tier characters.

The more recent SF4 is another example of this, though it's much, much more balanced than MvC2. There's a lot more high tier characters in SF4 than in MvC2, but the cut-off from high to mid makes for a larger mid/low tier list than high.

As competition gets tighter, we might see a more strict segregation of the high tier, but until then we can only look at champions that high ELO players pick a lot - the high tier.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Touche.

Alistar, again, not too sure but he's definitely scary. No question he's mid tier at least. Don't know about Top for me though.

I think we're actually on the same page about Corki and we are just misunderstanding each other. I still say Twitch and Trist are more alike but I understand what you're saying about how Corki is built.

In regards to what you said about Blitz, completely agreed. His presence gives you huge zone control. I would not say though he has enough going for him to make him high tier. Once a team fight has started his team value drops considerably. His ult is a comparatively weak nuke. He just becomes a mediocre physical carry through power first and overdrive. Again, not enough for high tier.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now, haha. Enjoyed the discussion! =D

Peace


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

01-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
Tiers don't have to be equal in numbers by definition. For example, Marvel vs Capcom 2 has a very small top/high tier list because only a few characters are effective as point fighters. Everyone else is pretty much destroyed by the top and high tier characters.

The more recent SF4 is another example of this, though it's much, much more balanced than MvC2. There's a lot more high tier characters in SF4 than in MvC2, but the cut-off from high to mid makes for a larger mid/low tier list than high.

As competition gets tighter, we might see a more strict segregation of the high tier, but until then we can only look at champions that high ELO players pick a lot - the high tier.
OK my last response, for real haha.

You're misunderstanding what I said. Tiers don't have to be equal in size. But there has to be an equal number of the cast in the top half, and an equal number in the bottom half.

If you have 10 characters in a game and your tiers are high low and mid. You can have something like:

1 Top
9 Mid
1 Bottom

That would be perfectly appropriate!

Equally acceptable would be something like
3 Top
3 Mid
4 Bottom

Something that by definition would not be appropriate would be:

2 Top
3 mid
5 Bottom

This creates a tier list in which 2 out of 3 tiers are comprised solely of the top half of the cast. By definition, it's incorrect, even though it might look acceptable.



The solomid tier list though is blatantly incorrectly constructed though.

In a game with 43 characters and an assumed tier list of Top, High, Mid, Low, Bottom, having 23 characters placed in the first two tiers immediately violates how tiers are supposed to be constructed.

Not trying to bash on the people there but if you really want to create a proper tier list you need to split the cast evenly.

OK, seriously, goodnight. xD


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-21-2010

I would ignore the solomid list recently posted anyway. Twitch's absense, Tryndmere's presence, Cho'gath at top, and Nidalee/Kassadin being high all suggest it's either out of date or just wrong. I've read through that thread and I'm pretty sure it'a a mix of both.