[Game Guide] Logistics, Strategy, Tactics

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Flygoniq

Senior Member

02-04-2011

Clearly not done, but it's going somewhere. I'm glad someone took the time to do this!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FaerellG

Senior Member

02-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisewind View Post
I just wanted to add a few things:

Lane phase:
1. Leading in farming and forcing out the enemy champ (death or close to it// mana)
2. Calling out MIA's
3. Ganking overextended lanes

Mid-game:
1. Securing your jungle (if you don't have a jungler from start)
2. Controlling dragon (warded constantly and either obtaining or baiting out enemy team)
3. All 3 lanes pushed past river
-this is most important you can't do anything else effectively without having your lanes pushed out past river (midpoint)
-once this condition is set you can group up and raid their jungle, chances are you will have numbers advantage if you catch them in their jungle or out of position

Late-game
(generally same as above except instead of controlling dragon you will be controlling Baron)
1. buy oracles to destroy wards
2. ward their jungle if you have them pushed or your jungle if they have you pushed
3. push only after successfully winning a teamfight or gank
-unless you are generally ahead in farm//xp it is never a good idea to 5man push a lane
-you can stall a lane with 4 and send your strongest pusher in an adjacent lane or further lane
Excellent suggestions for game play, so I'm going to put them into the context of my guide:

1. Leading in farming and forcing out the enemy champ (death or close to it// mana)
This falls under Logistical Tactics. Were this RL war, I would akin this tactic to "attacking supply lines".

2. Calling out MIA's
This falls under Map Awareness (thus Logistics)

3. Ganking overextended lanes
This falls under Tactics, and often is not a good idea. Ganking should only be done if you are certain that you will succeed because of the opportunity cost of the ganker missing out on lane XP. Success has gradients of course.
Killing is the best result and will do 2 things: 1 provide your team with kill and assist gold/xp, 2 reduce the farming time of your opponent.
Severe Injury is sort of a stale-mate, it forces the opponent back, but provides you with no immediate benefit. Sure they went back and lost farming time, but so did your ganker by leaving their lane.
Anything less than that should be considered a failed gank thus your opportunity cost was not recouped.

1. Securing your jungle (if you don't have a jungler from start)
Map Awareness

2. Controlling dragon (warded constantly and either obtaining or baiting out enemy team)
Map Awareness again.

3. All 3 lanes pushed past river
Tactics: pushing. This also generates Map Awareness via minions
Pushing also forces opponents to react to suffer a direct attack (their towers)
Pushing all 3 will force your opponent to spread and allow for you to execute Tactics as you please...taking control of jungles, or gathering together for a concentrated push.

1. buy oracles to destroy wards
Counter-Map Awareness

2. ward their jungle if you have them pushed or your jungle if they have you pushed
Map Awareness

3. push only after successfully winning a teamfight or gank
Situational Awareness...which falls under tactics really. Sometimes it's actually good to push or even fake a push if you know they're pre-occupied elsewhere. Are 2 of them at dragon? Let them have it, and push you can win a 5v3 and probably take down a tower (which is worth more than Dragon) in the process.
Admittedly, this is a good rule of thumb, but as noted, there are exceptions.

I'll see about incorporating this into the original post.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PeasOfCrab

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Forward
The enemy is attempting a 15 man push down the middle.

Sun Tzu's Art of War, Ch 4, Lns 8 and 10
Don't mean to be trollin' or anything, but...
How'd you get 15 people on one side?
Musta been a hell of a push.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FaerellG

Senior Member

02-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeasOfCrab View Post
Don't mean to be trollin' or anything, but...
How'd you get 15 people on one side?
Musta been a hell of a push.
Oops :P Nice catch. I was used to typing in "15" in reference to the levels, muscle memory must have taken over momentarily.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PineapplePine

Senior Member

02-05-2011

Just wondering, in OP you posted Map Awareness under Log while in the post of this page you said Map Awareness is under Tactics?

I want to add that if the person ganking overextended lanes (3) is your jungler then I don't believe its a stale mate even if the gank is a failure and only resulted in: a) the enemy at 1/2 hp and lane pushed our; or b) the enemy is severely injured and had to pill back. I agree that no matter who the ganker is, they are losing experience and gold. But jungler already often spend a lot their time walking around jungle and if there are enemy jungler you might just clear your jungle faster than it spawns. There are also the scenario that your ally needs a gank, they can hold the minions at or before turret but a gank is definitely better to relief them of the pressure. If the lane being ganked is an ally solo then you'll be getting decent exp as well. Plus, you can help push if it was enemy is severely injured. Last point, time for blue pill + buying + walking back to outter turret is longer than distance to jungles (unless you're running from fountain to gank then its even); a slight advantages perhaps.

Okay, now I read what I wrote it should fall in the lines of "there are too many scenarios or outcomes to decide whether its stalemate/break even or better"


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HungryKarnage

Member

02-05-2011

Personally I think this guide is required reading for all LOL players. Too often the focus is on the builds and masteries/rune setup (Logistics), and they assume that once their build is done it's an auto-win.

Staple builds are both a curse and blessing. While they normally are optimum for the champion, they are not optimum for the situation, and that is really where it counts.

Example: Malph build with a strong emphasis on armour to work with passive. Enemy team has 4 AP characters and only one range carry. So the build is optimum for the character, but not the situation.

Too much emphasis is also placed on ganking. While it is a valid plan if it is successful, you clearly mention the costs that you pay if it fails. I think your guide needs to also have a section on how to come back from a bad position. Most games, the team that gets the early advantage wins as the losing team starts QQing and bickering among themselves which in turn only helps them to lose rather than win. There are many things you can still do well even if you are behind, and people should be reminded of those options rather than losing heart.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FaerellG

Senior Member

02-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PineapplePine View Post
Just wondering, in OP you posted Map Awareness under Log while in the post of this page you said Map Awareness is under Tactics?
Typo...sorry. Will correct. Map Awareness is Logistics. It is akin to "spying" on the enemy. It's intelligence gathering.
Thank you for catching that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PineapplePine View Post
I want to add that if the person ganking overextended lanes (3) is your jungler then I don't believe its a stale mate even if the gank is a failure and only resulted in: a) the enemy at 1/2 hp and lane pushed our; or b) the enemy is severely injured and had to pill back. I agree that no matter who the ganker is, they are losing experience and gold. But jungler already often spend a lot their time walking around jungle and if there are enemy jungler you might just clear your jungle faster than it spawns. There are also the scenario that your ally needs a gank, they can hold the minions at or before turret but a gank is definitely better to relief them of the pressure. If the lane being ganked is an ally solo then you'll be getting decent exp as well. Plus, you can help push if it was enemy is severely injured. Last point, time for blue pill + buying + walking back to outter turret is longer than distance to jungles (unless you're running from fountain to gank then its even); a slight advantages perhaps.
Entirely correct. Exceptional junglers (warwick and nunu) can gank with little opportunity cost which is another reason why junglers are so efficient.

The general scenario I outlined was in reference to laners leaving their lane to go gank another lane. I will make that clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PineapplePine View Post
Okay, now I read what I wrote it should fall in the lines of "there are too many scenarios or outcomes to decide whether its stalemate/break even or better"
:P
That is also very true. This is one of the critical differences between a Real Time strategy game an Turn Based strategy games, and traditional strategy games like Chess.

If you have the chance I recommend reading the book "Luck Logic and White Lies"

It doesn't classify Chess as a "strategy" game anymore because it's theoretically possible to know every game-state, and thus construct a finite-state machine to play the "perfect" game of chess simply by choosing the move that leads to the most potential winning states.

On the other hand real-time games have a literally infinite amount of minutia that is impossible to calculate. Did you click that button earlier than you liked? How much earlier. 1 second earlier? 0.1 seconds earlier? How about 0.0000000001 seconds earlier? Literally infinite, and it's impossible for us to tell if such minute discrepancies would make a difference in the result of the game.

So yes, you are right, there are too many "unknown" factors to calculate. That is why strategy and tactics are not hard-fast things. To quote Bruce Lee:
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

The thing here is to be flexible. Have multiple plans. It's one of the reasons that I dislike Dominatius Maxim's Sivir guide...It's not at all comprehensive. He finds the numerically optimal build and utilizes that. Mind you, it's an excellent build, but to claim that it is the only way to build Sivir is flat out wrong. Being the single best farmer in the game, Sivir has tactical flexibility. I have at least 3 concepts to which I build Sivir towards and each time I play her, the build is custom tailored based on my opponent's team and how best to assist my team. Because of her immense farming ability, you can also literally "build swap". I've had a game where our off tank dropped and the squishies (myself included) were getting stomped. I immediately sold my Last Whisper and purchased a warmogs and started working on an Atma's. It won us the game because I was suddenly able to survive long enough for my team to beat down the enemy.

Was Warmogs/Atmas the optimial build making optimal use of Sivir's abilities? Probably not. But it was what my team needed, so I did it, and it worked.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rangorb

Member

02-05-2011

Very good guide; hope to see it going more in-depth in the future.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wisewind

Senior Member

02-06-2011

I wanted to expand a bit on the point of pushing lanes past the river during mid-game. What I specifically mean is clearing minion waves up till the river or mid-point of the map. Not continually pushing through, because once you push past the river you are overextended and just significantly increased the angles the enemy team can gank you.

The important thing to know is that once you clear creep waves up to the river, your minions will push forward until it either
A) encouters a champion who pushes it back or
B) reaches a tower and is cleared out

This fact is key because it puts you at an advantage in terms of forcing the enemy team to react to you. I noted in my original post that this is a prime opportunity for your team to gather and raid one of their jungles, why? Because it forces the enemy team to declare where they are.

Having all three lanes steadily pushing towards their towers forces them to split their team up to push back giving your team a flanking/ganking angle in their jungle and an opportunity to 5 man gank a lane or one of their junglers.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wisewind

Senior Member

02-06-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Excellent suggestions for game play, so I'm going to put them into the context of my guide:

3. Ganking overextended lanes
This falls under Tactics, and often is not a good idea. Ganking should only be done if you are certain that you will succeed because of the opportunity cost of the ganker missing out on lane XP. Success has gradients of course.
Killing is the best result and will do 2 things: 1 provide your team with kill and assist gold/xp, 2 reduce the farming time of your opponent.
Severe Injury is sort of a stale-mate, it forces the opponent back, but provides you with no immediate benefit. Sure they went back and lost farming time, but so did your ganker by leaving their lane.
Anything less than that should be considered a failed gank thus your opportunity cost was not recouped.
Ganking overextended lanes imo is beneficial outside of just netting a kill. While it is ideal to secure a kill it falls under forcing out the enemy champ out of the lane.

Also regardless of outcome it does give that lane a psychological advantage as well by making the enemy less aggressive and more wary of ganks.

Having your team nested within their turret is usually the worst scenario for them and your team as they have no control over the lane and have to compete with the tower for last hits thus minimal farm. In the case of a duo lane it provides less map awareness and allows one of the enemy champs to help out with other objectives (jungle, dragon, and ganking) .

While the cost of losing xp for leaving a lane is a noteworthy risk it is minimal if it's your own jungler ganking the lane. Generally losing xp from your lane to prevent losing a lane in general is a worthwile trade-off.


123