Why all the AD Kog'Maw hate?

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Kytora

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02-03-2011

I tend to ignore the Q unless I have completely exhausted all of my skills and it's for emergency cause it gives some last second damage. Keep in mind the armor reduction though, it can come in handy at times **. Kog can be built multiple ways and as Rebonack says he can take both paths at the same time in my opinion because he can squishies at the same rate as tanks in theory.

Technically people will be suspecting AD kog (depends on the knowledge of your opponents) to be physical damage just because of the auto attack; however, even if they stack magic resist at the same time, they won't be effectively stacking both (unless its a rammus with DBC then possibly) and you can take them out either way.

As for the phantom dancers, I generally don't pick them up because it is more important to build other damaging/utility items that support an aspect of kog; although it gives att speed etc. I believe madreds + nashors that has CDR, and AP will be sufficient accompanied by your Q passive.

So.. just saying again. I prefer AP/AS >.<


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sanajin

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02-03-2011

Here's a comparison I did of two sample builds. The first relies on AP/AS with Bloodrazor and Nashors Tooth, the second relies on AD/AS using a Phantom Dancer and Infinity Edge. To be fair, I think the "AP" build could use more AP, this is just a starting point. I think these items are good to use as a discussion point as they are comparable in total price and arguably in damage output.

AP/AS For 6265

  • 90+ damage (30 physical + 60 or more magic damage)
  • 95% atk speed increase
  • 25 armor
  • 55 ability power

AD/AS For 6975
  • 75 damage
  • 55% atk speed increase
  • 50% crit chance
  • 15% move speed
  • Crit Damage increased from 2 to 2.5

Brief Analysis:

AP/AS build offers an additional 60 to 160 magic damage per hit depending on the health of your opponent (assuming between 1500 and 4000hp), 40% attack speed, 25 armor, and 55 ability power, while forfeiting a significant +50% crit chance and +50% crit damage. The user pigeon-holes themself into a primarily magic damage role, which could be just what the doctor ordered if you have health and armor stacking opponents and other AD/AS champions on your team, but would be significantly less effective against squishy enemy carries. REGARDLESS, Kog'Maw's multiple-target potency is enhanced as Living Artillery and Ooze are scaling off AP items. Haunting Guise and Sorc boots would would compliment this build well.

I keep coming back to the same conclusions. Both builds are viable, it just depends on the situation.

Build AP/AS one or more of these are true:
  • You already have physical carries doing their job
  • The enemy team is heavy on HP/Armor stackers

Build AD/AS if:
  • Your team has significant magic damage.
  • Your team does not have a physical carry.
  • The enemy team is heavy on squishy carries.


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Burbinator

Senior Member

02-03-2011

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PD/IE combined with W and E means a ton critical hits in a matter of seconds from massive range, with R to catch runners. Have you tried it? I've had a lot of success with it, I think you can see that on my match history right now. It's true that his abilities scale on AP ... then again so does Tristana's, and that doesn't stop most people from playing her AS/AD.
Tristana has a better steroid in the form of her q. And her scaling with AP is terrible besides buster shot. That's why.

Quote:
typically citing that there are "much better AD champs"
There are. Not that they are necessarily much stronger in terms of pure AD, but for their other benefits. Kog is good because of his insane magic damage and onhit effect from BAB. If you don't build to that, then you could be dealing similar damage on champs with more utility. For example, ashe can kite entire teams, scout with HS, one of the best initiators. Trist is better straight up AD with her q, very good escape with ult/rocket jump. Corki's got great escape too, gatling is very good for physical burst damage, good poking/aoe too. MF has a powerful aoe ult with incredibly strong laning phase (kog is a bit weak pre 6 IMO) and she counters healing champs. So on and so forth.

Edit: oh, and how could i forget sivir, who is the queen of straight up AD dps (oh god so much ricochet damage, and then that ult steroid :O)

Quote:
Have you tried it? I've had a lot of success with it, I think you can see that on my match history right now.
I saw your match history, you have more losses with kog than wins actually.


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sanajin

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02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burbinator View Post
Tristana has a better steroid in the form of her q. And her scaling with AP is terrible besides buster shot. That's why.

There are. Not that they are necessarily much stronger in terms of pure AD, but for their other benefits. Kog is good because of his insane magic damage and onhit effect from BAB. If you don't build to that, then you could be dealing similar damage on champs with more utility. For example, ashe can kite entire teams, scout with HS, one of the best initiators. Trist is better straight up AD with her q, very good escape with ult/rocket jump. Corki's got great escape too, gatling is very good for physical burst damage, good poking/aoe too. MF has a powerful aoe ult with incredibly strong laning phase (kog is a bit weak pre 6 IMO) and she counters healing champs. So on and so forth.

I saw your match history, you have more losses with kog than wins actually.
Now we're getting somewhere, actual reasons. That's a good point that kog is lacking in utility and escape mechanisms. Though in terms of utility I must mention that Living Artillery really does the trick for checking bushes. Regarding escape, I guess I've been so successful zoning the enemy early game and easily positioning with him during team fights due to his massive range that escaping has been less of a priority than I am used to with a squishy.

Great scaling isn't a reason to write off a viable build, I didn't choose Tristana as an example in that regard, as her scaling is obviously poor.

I've played a lot of Kog lately but am only about 50% wins over losses, which I'd venture is rather average for most players regardless of champ, it's a shame my match history doesn't reflect that. It also of course, does not reflect all the weird **** that happens in normal queue of which my Kog playing is not an exception. I figured there were some crushing games in their that would illustrate that AD/AS is viable, not sure if that's the case though.


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Burbinator

Senior Member

02-03-2011

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I've played a lot of Kog lately but am only about 50% wins over losses, which I'd venture is rather average for most players regardless of champ, it's a shame my match history doesn't reflect that. It also of course, does not reflect all the weird **** that happens in normal queue of which my Kog playing is not an exception. I figured there were some crushing games in their that would illustrate that AD/AS is viable, not sure if that's the case though.
Your latest two have over 2:1 kdr, but that doesn't illustrate too much to me. Kog is extremely powerful late game, whether you build him AD or AP. What I DO see is that you have a lot of early game losses with kog befor eyou get kitted out. AP kog, who relies on his nukes, is more powerful early-mid game (building mpen, cdr, mana regen etc) which may have prevented those losses (by reversing enemy snowballs etc).


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Kytora

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02-03-2011

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Originally Posted by sanajin View Post

AP/AS build offers an additional 60 to 160 magic damage per hit depending on the health of your opponent (assuming between 1500 and 4000hp), 40% attack speed, 25 armor, and 55 ability power, while forfeiting a significant +50% crit chance and +50% crit damage.
I can see where you're getting at but even with a +50% crit chance and damage you are not necessarily doing more damage. For tanks that stack armor this is not the case because percentage power will be better than raw Attack damage: it will deal the same amount of damage (equivalent percentage health) regardless to any champion.


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Burbinator

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kytora View Post
I can see where you're getting at but even with a +50% crit chance and damage you are not necessarily doing more damage. For tanks that stack armor this is not the case because percentage power will be better than raw Attack damage: it will deal the same amount of damage (equivalent percentage health) regardless to any champion.
He's also missing CDR from nashors which lets you have BAB up more (more long range, more % health damage) not to mention more ult spamming with its mana regen.


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Pieson

Senior Member

02-03-2011

wait, people think that AP is better than the MBR build?

well, I'll be happy when I play against the AP kog, but sad when he's on my team. Because his ult has terrible scaling. Not to mention you can dodge it. Or that he has 2 skills he can use as opposed to the annie who was 3.


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Burbinator

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieson View Post
wait, people think that AP is better than the MBR build?

well, I'll be happy when I play against the AP kog, but sad when he's on my team. Because his ult has terrible scaling. Not to mention you can dodge it. Or that he has 2 skills he can use as opposed to the annie who was 3.
When i say AP kog i mean AP/AS hybrid (which includes madreds, yeah), with some emphasis on spellpen, and optionally some high AP items late game if you dont need survivability. It's just that the main difference between the builds is AD/AS or AP/AS so i just leave out the AS part lols.


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Rebonack

Senior Member

02-03-2011

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@ Rebonack: Isn't physical damage just as easy to counter as magic damage in this context? Is your point that you don't want to rely on your auto attack scaling on magic damage just like your abilities, leaving you with only one type of damage instead of two (phys from auto and magic from abilities)?
I'm even more excited about Kog now, seeing that he can take the path of a tank shredder or typical squishy assassin.
Yes, physical damage is just as easy to mitigate as magic. Probably easier to be honest. The benefit of an AD/IAS Kog over a OnHit/IAS Kog is that your damage is mixed and you smash soft targets faster. That's in addition to being a pain in the ass to catch due to higher move speed.

Because Koggy's main skills have such low AP ratios running AP isn't your best bet. Magic Pen is by far the most cost effective option. Void Staff is an absurdly under-rated item on Kog'Maw. If you're going for the OnHit/IAS build Void Staff should be your second or third major item depending on how much MR the enemy team is stacking.