Black Cleaver Vs. Last Whisper & Zeal

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

OP updated based on error findings. Drastically changed results.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Izri

Member

02-03-2011

I suppose this data is only for autoattacks. For some champions and abilities, like Ezreals Mystic Shot or Ashe's Volley the additional attackspeed from Zeal, or the critchance are simply wasted, there Black Cleaver might give more damage, especially with Ezreals Mystic Shot, which applies two stacks at one shot.

Or did I miss something?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izri View Post
I suppose this data is only for autoattacks. For some champions and abilities, like Ezreals Mystic Shot or Ashe's Volley the additional attackspeed from Zeal, or the critchance are simply wasted, there Black Cleaver might give more damage, especially with Ezreals Mystic Shot, which applies two stacks at one shot.

Or did I miss something?
I specifically said in point number 1 that no champion abilitites were considered...

Doing so would require WAY too much work, and would not be worth it.

This is more like a tool for those who want to know how their auto attacks will be affected by one choice or the other...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gunflame

Senior Member

02-03-2011

I like the analisis... but for fairness sake you need to account for the extra 14% extra gold (400) which is quite a bit .

You can buy:
a) 1.5 Green elixirs or red elixir
b) Brawler's gloves (+8% Critical strike)
c) dagger (+15% attack speed)
d) Long Sword (+10 AD).

I would include an aditional 15% attack speed OR 8% critical strike OR +10 AD on the black cleaver to make the calculations fair.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
I like the analisis... but for fairness sake you need to account for the extra 14% extra gold (400) which is quite a bit .

You can buy:
a) 1.5 Green elixirs or red elixir
b) Brawler's gloves (+8% Critical strike)
c) dagger (+15% attack speed)
d) Long Sword (+10 AD).

I would include an aditional 15% attack speed OR 8% critical strike OR +10 AD on the black cleaver to make the calculations fair.
I started to do something like this, but I think that the stats not including cost efficiency speak for themselves enough. Basically, you don't wanna build LW unless your champion has some kind of specific benefit from it (like Ashe's passive and Volley needing the armor pen right up front), or if the targets have more than 100 armor. Otherwise, it's probably best to go with BC, especially since you get to buy another low cost item.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

imhuge

Senior Member

02-03-2011

one more thing

Cleaver is better against buildings since there's no crit or armor pen involved


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

godhunter1053

Senior Member

02-03-2011

So what your saying makes some sense to me, but I'm confused at why you chose some of your starting conditions:

When you say 120 base AD, do you mean with the BC or LWZ? or do you mean actual base damage? Because the only champ in the game with base that high is Alistar.

Why are you assuming that they have an IE? The would naturally give a greater advantage to the zeal setup as the crits would stack much better (...maybe, the more I think about it the less I'm sure how great of an effect the IE zeal would have over an IE BC, but thats for another time my real point follows), and the choice for a BC is usually made before you get an IE to take advantage of its early game prowess rather than its late game stats. (In other words armor scales with level, and fights are usually more sustained auto attacking, so BC would normally be a better choice early game). If this analysis is supposed to be a comparison based on an end game build, then I think that may need to be clarified a bit...


If this analysis is aimed at end game only, I'd really like it to be clarified, or perhaps you could do the analysis without the IE pre-70 armor, as the odds of you getting an IE than either of these combinations before the opponents hit 17/18 is rather low. (Base armor on most champs at lvl 18 is around 70 something armor).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Burbinator

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Why are you assuming that they have an IE? The would naturally give a greater advantage to the zeal setup as the crits would stack much better (...maybe, the more I think about it the less I'm sure how great of an effect the IE zeal would have over an IE BC, but thats for another time my real point follows), and the choice for a BC is usually made before you get an IE to take advantage of its early game prowess rather than its late game stats. (In other words armor scales with level, and fights are usually more sustained auto attacking, so BC would normally be a better choice early game). If this analysis is supposed to be a comparison based on an end game build, then I think that may need to be clarified a bit...
IE is something you ALWAYS are rushing.

The problem with BC early game is that you already have natural arpen, and the reduction is applied first, so you won't make use of all stacks. IE + arpen from runes/masteries is more cost efficient, almost always.

Because you are always rushing IE, then it makes sense to make an analysis based with IE already in your inventory. I can't think of any champ who'd benefit from BC more than IE. The crits + bigger crits adds more in auto attacking. If you are a champ that scales with pure AD, then you're going thirsters, not BC. So the choice for BF sword item is between those two not IE and BC.

@eledhan: adding +10% dps for BC is a bit unfair IMO. I don't think it's a straight 10% increase in DPS, i don't think that's how it works. If you have 50% bonus AS already, then get 10% AS, it stacks additively (60%) not multiplicatively (10% base + 5% from bonus for 65% total). I'm fairly certain champs have natural AS increase, don't they? Plus a lot of carries get zerkers (it's not necessarily core, but it's a good item for many carries, who rely on positioning not on mercs to avoid cc).

side notes: in any chasing/kiting situation, zeal is better (more movespeed = less time running more time attacking). Also easier to farm up LW/zeal than BC. Also zeal builds into PD for better late game potential. Also LW applies on spells, which is more useful than getting 3 stacks on BC before casting or for any multi target spell. Pantheon is not going to be able to get 3 hits off before hss, for instance, or before using spear; thewhole point of spear is that it's ranged. Ashe can't get stacks on everyone before volleying, furthermore volley has more range than auto. Etc etc.

so what i'm seeing from this thread, LWZ is better in almost every situation. I'd only get BC if we had a lot of other physical damage dealers on the team, but just because of teamcomp this genreally doesnt happen too often.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by godhunter1053 View Post
So what your saying makes some sense to me, but I'm confused at why you chose some of your starting conditions:

When you say 120 base AD, do you mean with the BC or LWZ? or do you mean actual base damage? Because the only champ in the game with base that high is Alistar.
Actually, 120 base AD at level 18 is not that far off from most AD champions. I selected it because if you're building IE first, then either BC or LWZ, then you're already going to be at 18 (or pretty darn close) by the time the elements are built.

Quote:
Why are you assuming that they have an IE?
Because otherwise, BC wins...hands down. The comparison isn't even worth looking at without assuming IE. The whole purpose of this thread was to post my findings that are VERY relevant to any AD champion who has IE as a core item, since IE is the item most champs need to rush first thing.

Quote:
If this analysis is aimed at end game only, I'd really like it to be clarified, or perhaps you could do the analysis without the IE pre-70 armor, as the odds of you getting an IE than either of these combinations before the opponents hit 17/18 is rather low. (Base armor on most champs at lvl 18 is around 70 something armor).
It's very clear that this is a late-game analysis.

However, your assertion that IE can only be achieved around level 17-18 is just wrong. Unless of course I misunderstood you.

I regularly get IE on Ashe at about level 12-15, usually about 20 min into the game. That's what initially inspired me to check on this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burbinator View Post
IE is something you ALWAYS are rushing.

The problem with BC early game is that you already have natural arpen, and the reduction is applied first, so you won't make use of all stacks. IE + arpen from runes/masteries is more cost efficient, almost always.
True, but since champions who need massive damage will probably be getting IE first, this isn't an issue, as you mention in the next paragraph.

Quote:
Because you are always rushing IE, then it makes sense to make an analysis based with IE already in your inventory. I can't think of any champ who'd benefit from BC more than IE. The crits + bigger crits adds more in auto attacking. If you are a champ that scales with pure AD, then you're going thirsters, not BC. So the choice for BF sword item is between those two not IE and BC.
Agreed.

Quote:
@eledhan: adding +10% dps for BC is a bit unfair IMO. I don't think it's a straight 10% increase in DPS, i don't think that's how it works. If you have 50% bonus AS already, then get 10% AS, it stacks additively (60%) not multiplicatively (10% base + 5% from bonus for 65% total). I'm fairly certain champs have natural AS increase, don't they? Plus a lot of carries get zerkers (it's not necessarily core, but it's a good item for many carries, who rely on positioning not on mercs to avoid cc).
Percentage increase works the same way for both builds... Black Cleaver just adds more than Zeal does, so it gets the extra bonus to DPS. You're attacking 10% faster, therefore, you're dealing approximately 10% more damage in one second.

You can try out the math yourself, but as far as I can tell, 10% faster attack speeds = 10% more attacks per second = 10% more damage in one second.

Yes, attack speed does stack additively, even the % bonus per level. All forms of attack speed bonuses are added up before applying them to the base attack speed. Therefore, any extra speed bonus you get increases DPS by that percentage.

Quote:
side notes: in any chasing/kiting situation, zeal is better (more movespeed = less time running more time attacking).
True. But this analysis is just for information purposes to use when making decisions...not to actually make the decision based purely on this.

Quote:
Also easier to farm up LW/zeal than BC. Also zeal builds into PD for better late game potential. Also LW applies on spells, which is more useful than getting 3 stacks on BC before casting or for any multi target spell. Pantheon is not going to be able to get 3 hits off before hss, for instance, or before using spear; thewhole point of spear is that it's ranged. Ashe can't get stacks on everyone before volleying, furthermore volley has more range than auto. Etc etc.
All of the above is true. Which is why I recommend LWZ if you need to penetrate more than 75 armor while playing as Ashe, since you would have to hit the target 3 times in order to break even. If you are trying to penetrate more armor than you have from runes and masteries, but your targets have less than 75, use a Brutalizer.

Quote:
so what i'm seeing from this thread, LWZ is better in almost every situation. I'd only get BC if we had a lot of other physical damage dealers on the team, but just because of teamcomp this genreally doesnt happen too often.
Actually, BC is much better than LWZ when you include the cost effectiveness and inventory space. However, on specific champions who have physical damage abilities, LWZ is probably much better. It's really up to the user to determine if the information found in this analysis should alter their choice of items based on the champion they are playing.