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Black Cleaver Vs. Last Whisper & Zeal

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Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Drakantus:
Black cleaver also increases your team's physical damage to the target. Black cleaver's effect benefits things like pantheon's spear while last whisper does not.


LWZ still does more average damage per attack than a fully stacked BC does, so applying all 3 stacks in less than 1 second still doesn't do you as much good as LWZ.

Quote:
Black cleaver's effect stacks completely with rune/item(bratalizer)/mastery armor penetration, while last whisper's effect is diminished somewhat and doesn't stack as nicely.


This is true...

However, if you have Apen marks and quints along with masteries, you're penetrating 30 armor. At 50 target armor, BC will never reduce target armor below 0 since armor reduction is applied first, and armor penetration cannot reduce armor below 0.

50 armor - 45 BC reduction = 5 armor
5 armor - 30 armor pen = 0 armor, not -25 armor

This is why BC is not as effective as it seems for low armor levels...it simply doesn't reduce armor below 0.

Quote:
How do the numbers look if you assume the champion has full armor pen reds, armor pen masteries, and a brutalizer?


LWZ is MUCH better at lower armor levels and BC is only slightly less worse at high levels if you include Brutalizer armor pen in the equation. This is due to the concept I mentioned the above section...


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DrDragun

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Okay I am satisfied with the exception of 1 flaw. Your analysis is damage per 4 attacks not damage per second. So this means the better attack speed on Black Cleaver is completely ignored. In fact those 4 attacks will occur in a shorter time period with BC than LWZ.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Drakantus:
Black cleaver's effect benefits things like pantheon's spear while last whisper does not.


Quote:
Patch Notes .103:
Last Whisper unique armor penetration now functions with abilities (but still not against turrets)


You're living in the past!

Regardless, I still prefer flat armor penetration on any champion. With Brutalizer, Youmuu's, or Black Cleaver or Stark's and ArPen Marks, you can easily stack up a flat 50 or better, and LW's passive is then wasted on anything but a tank.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
DrDragun:
Okay I am satisfied with the exception of 1 flaw. Your analysis is damage per 4 attacks not damage per second. So this means the better attack speed on Black Cleaver is completely ignored. In fact those 4 attacks will occur in a shorter time period with BC than LWZ.


I know...

They'll occur exactly 10% faster than LWZ.

I did include that in the analysis, just after the % increase in damage was calculated. I then reduced said increase over BC by the speed difference to deal the damage.

I thought I made that clear, and posted the actual DPS percentage differences in the thread...


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ThanatosAUS

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Your numbers seemed odd to me because last whisper is most effective when enemy is stacking armour.

I think your numbers for avg damage have been done incorrectly. The method you used was dmg * crit chance * crit dmg.

It made more sense to me for it to be attacks per 100, so I did (32*2.6*211.5) + (68*211.5) /100
32 criticals + 68 normal hits /100 = 319.79 for lw zeal

(22*2.6*226.5) + (78*226.5) /100 = 306.23 for cleaver.
That's 22 crits + 78 regular /100.

Last whisper is still more effective at 100+ armour, but cleaver edges it out below that.


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DrDragun

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Eledhan:
I know...

They'll occur exactly 10% faster than LWZ.

I did include that in the analysis, just after the % increase in damage was calculated. I then reduced said increase over BC by the speed difference to deal the damage.

I thought I made that clear, and posted the actual DPS percentage differences in the thread...


Alright, then I am satisfied. Surprising results will always get the most scrutiny, but this seems legit and surprising.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
Redenbacher:
You're living in the past!

Regardless, I still prefer flat armor penetration on Pantheon. With Brutalizer, Youmuu's, and ArPen Marks, you're looking at a flat 50, and LW's passive is then wasted on anything but a tank.


Yeah, I know what you mean.

I don't propose buying a LW unless you HAVE to fight against tanks...otherwise, you might as well just focus on more damage, or flat armor pen from things like Brute.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
ThanatosAUS:
Your numbers seemed odd to me because last whisper is most effective when enemy is stacking armour.

I think your numbers for avg damage have been done incorrectly. The method you used was dmg * crit chance * crit dmg.

It made more sense to me for it to be attacks per 100, so I did (32*2.6*211.5) + (68*211.5) /100
32 criticals + 68 normal hits /100 = 319.79 for lw zeal

(22*2.6*226.5) + (78*226.5) /100 = 306.23 for cleaver.
That's 22 crits + 78 regular /100.

Last whisper is still more effective at 100+ armour, but cleaver edges it out below that.


You're absolutely correct.

I knew there had to be something wrong....thanks for pointing that out!!!

Updating the OP...


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ThanatosAUS

Senior Member

02-03-2011

I just realised what seemed weird, your method gives an avg damage lower than the base damage you start with.

Logically it should be somewhere between the basic hit and a critical hit.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

02-03-2011

Quote:
ThanatosAUS:
I just realised what seemed weird, your method gives an avg damage lower than the base damage you start with.

Logically it should be somewhere between the basic hit and a critical hit.


Yeah, no joke....

I can't believe I missed that!!!!

I guess that's what happens when you try to do it all yourself...you get lost in all the numbers!!!

I'm updating the OP as soon as I can...