On Eve's difficulties

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WinterAyars

Senior Member

08-15-2009

I think it's well-known that she doesn't work if the enemies are smart. I'm going to try examining why that is and what can be done about it:

First of all, she's high risk/high reward... but the risks are pretty extreme and the reward isn't very good. Sure, she can go on a murder spree... but a lot has to happen (or rather: not happen) before you can do that.

Her fundamental gameplan relies on Shadow Walk's invisibility. Ravage is just a short range, 1:1 AP nuke without Shadow Walk (not bad, but not a backbone skill or exceptional in any manner). Spike can work, but it's short range (again) so if you're running at someone while visible they will bail, so you really have to catch them unawares. And of course her Shadow Walk skill is built around its stealth. Her ultimate revolves around killing champions, so unless you can chain the ults together they're not going to help you in any real way.

So what's supposed to happen is that you wreck isolated heroes, participate in ganks, and chain-kill the enemies.

What actually happens is that enemies get vision, stealth detection, and stick together.

When players do things that are smart (get Clairvoyance, especially with the stealth detection mastery; bunch up; and chain their spells together) Eve cannot contribute.

If the enemies have stealth detection you have no options. Eve doesn't have much hp, she doesn't have range, she doesn't have a solid initiation/escape without stealth, and it's not like she has a backup plan--she can't realistically compete with the carry heroes on their terms (no dps buff unless you're already able to kill heroes), can't support (no support skills), can't tank, can't push or backdoor, can't even kamikaze (gets chain disabled and killed immediately), etc.

So her gameplan is extremely brittle and she has no backup.

It's not that she needs to be better at assassination, it's that she can't do anything when Shadow Walk is not good enough (which is often).

The only other stealth reliant hero is Twitch, and he has some options when stealth fails, but Eve doesn't.

So in summary: she has this assassin gameplan, and when it works it works well. However, the enemies get to decide when it does and does not work... so if they want to spend resources (usually they don't even have to spend resources, as the best plays already ruin her gameplan) to stop her she can't use her assassin gameplan.

The two options are to make her stealth gameplan less brittle--if she's going to be totally laser-focused on one thing she should be able to do it--or to give her some other plan to fall back on. This backup plan probably needs to be related to team fights, as being 4v5 in those really, really hurts your team.

I don't have a specific "solution", though i have some vague ideas. Feel free to brainstorm, or discuss the problems.

I rather like the idea, but because of how the game works she just gets totally hosed and not being allowed to play the game just because your opponents bought an item or used a popular spell/mastery combo is not fun... or fair.


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alwaysminus

Junior Member

08-15-2009

It seems like you're putting eve in situations where she is alone trying to kill people in a group. For solo one vs one eve just destroys and if it were a large group fight i think Eve puts out enough burst dps to handle herself well and still have the easy out with the invis when things get hairy. just my opinion.


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muusbolla

Senior Member

08-15-2009

@person above me: You didn't read the OP's post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterAyars View Post
So what's supposed to happen is that you wreck isolated heroes, participate in ganks, and chain-kill the enemies.

What actually happens is that enemies get vision, stealth detection, and stick together.
OP is right, Evelynn gets wrecked in high-level play. She is far more useless than Twitch because she can't do ANYTHING without stealth. Twitch can at least get some ranged attacks off and slow someone down to help his team.

What happens when Evelynn tries to gank against an organized team (assuming they don't stealth detect and kill her first): She stuns the caster, he Boosts and disables her back, and she gets roflstomped.


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alwaysminus

Junior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by muusbolla View Post
@person above me: You didn't read the OP's post.

OP is right, Evelynn gets wrecked in high-level play. She is far more useless than Twitch because she can't do ANYTHING without stealth. Twitch can at least get some ranged attacks off and slow someone down to help his team.

What happens when Evelynn tries to gank against an organized team (assuming they don't stealth detect and kill her first): She stuns the caster, he Boosts and disables her back, and she gets roflstomped.
I guess that's true, so no one has ever seen a good eve in a highly organized team match?


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WinterAyars

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwaysminus View Post
I guess that's true, so no one has ever seen a good eve in a highly organized team match?
No, because in highly organized team matches they will get vision and chain stun you before you have a chance to do anything. Every time. You can be as good as you want, but if they counter her she literally has no more options. It's the hardest counter in the game right now, and she's nowhere near strong enough for it to be warranted. (I mean, maybe there are some Eves who show up in high-level play. I don't know. If you are an Eve and Eve can work please post!)

That's the point, though: if the enemies aren't stupid she literally cannot do anything.

The feedback is that she needs some options that the enemies can't take away.

(Edit)

Also, on the point of Twitch: his stealth is more robust anyway, since he doesn't have to get right up next to you. He can hang out where it's safe, even if the other team has detection he can work around it. Eve can't. She has to be right next to her victim to be able to do anything.


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Lollerman

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterAyars View Post
No, because in highly organized team matches they will get vision and chain stun you before you have a chance to do anything. Every time. You can be as good as you want, but if they counter her she literally has no more options. It's the hardest counter in the game right now, and she's nowhere near strong enough for it to be warranted. (I mean, maybe there are some Eves who show up in high-level play. I don't know. If you are an Eve and Eve can work please post!)

That's the point, though: if the enemies aren't stupid she literally cannot do anything.

The feedback is that she needs some options that the enemies can't take away.

(Edit)

Also, on the point of Twitch: his stealth is more robust anyway, since he doesn't have to get right up next to you. He can hang out where it's safe, even if the other team has detection he can work around it. Eve can't. She has to be right next to her victim to be able to do anything.
To be fair, even if they could see you, they'd need something to stop you with first before Eve is considered "countered".

Just being able to see her isn't nearly enough; you need to run away from her too, and if you have to run away, then that in itself already makes Eve sufficient.

For example, from experience, if Jax sees Eve coming, he'll still need to get his E up before she comes close, otherwise she can still stun him, ravage him, and take him out without ever hitting him (I was Jax. I also suck at LoL, I hear you saying, but that's not the point.)

I know that example is a tad situational, but Eve's damage output is still nothing to laugh about. Just like how organised teams can completely disable and FF Eve to drop her like a fly, your team mates could be used to divert their focus to them rather than you. There are plenty of skills that force champions to be apart rather than bunch up - there are even abilities that completely take champs out of the vicinity - Eve could pair up with these champions and pick off easy targets.

I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I've also seen plenty of good team mates who managed to facilitate Eve's squishiness. Not least of all of which was Tristana/Alista/Singe isolating champions so Eve can finish them off alone. I've personally had an allied Eve benefit from my Fiddle/Morgana's ult which forced the enemies to break apart.

Edit: fixed some eye gauging grammar.


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Emrot

Senior Member

08-15-2009

I'd like to see Eve have the option of playing a decent role other than assassin/ganker. The problem is, it's hard to come up with something that will give her an alternate role without buffing her current playstyle. I've had a few random ideas, but I don't think any would really accomplish that goal:

  • Let her Ult upgrade her stealth, so that even CV/Oracle elixirs can't see her if she's got both running. (Helps her stealth, obviously. Still, would let her do something against teams with lots of detection)
  • Give her some AoE protection, to let her enter team fights better (doesn't stop her from being stunned and focused though)
  • Give her some stun protection, to let her enter team fights better. (Would improve her assassin ability, probably too much)
  • Let her disguise as a member of the enemy team, TF2 Spy style. (Maybe give complete turret protection? No idea how this would give her an alternate role, though)
  • Make one or both of her abilities out of hide be AoE (Big enough to hit all the caster creeps, maybe. Wouldn't really improve her team fighting ability, but it could help her farm up items)


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Lollerman

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by emrot View Post
I'd like to see Eve have the option of playing a decent role other than assassin/ganker. The problem is, it's hard to come up with something that will give her an alternate role without buffing her current playstyle. I've had a few random ideas, but I don't think any would really accomplish that goal:

  • Let her Ult upgrade her stealth, so that even CV/Oracle elixirs can't see her if she's got both running. (Helps her stealth, obviously. Still, would let her do something against teams with lots of detection)
  • Give her some AoE protection, to let her enter team fights better (doesn't stop her from being stunned and focused though)
  • Give her some stun protection, to let her enter team fights better. (Would improve her assassin ability, probably too much)
  • Let her disguise as a member of the enemy team, TF2 Spy style. (Maybe give complete turret protection? No idea how this would give her an alternate role, though)
  • Make one or both of her abilities out of hide be AoE (Big enough to hit all the caster creeps, maybe. Wouldn't really improve her team fighting ability, but it could help her farm up items)
Can't say much about the balance of some of these suggestions, but I will add that ult buffing her other abilities seems like a decent idea. Perhaps her ult should give her a free activation on Q? This will allow her to remain in team fights a lot longer, not just allow her to be the assassin she was intended to be.

I had mind to suggest that her Q allows her to have 0 collision, allowing her to walk through creeps/champs; that way, she'll still have incredible amounts of mobility/versitility even if you could see her.


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Koslomac

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Evelyn is much like the spy of TF2, a stomper if not given atention, useless if their team knows you are there. She's a noob stomper and I don't really see why every chapion should be good at everything.


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Lollerman

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosta View Post
Evelyn is much like the spy of TF2, a stomper if not given atention, useless if their team knows you are there. She's a noob stomper and I don't really see why every chapion should be good at everything.
Yeah not the best analogy you could've come up with there.

If Eve is exclusively a pub stomper, then something needs to be done about how easy it is to counter her, considering LoL doesn't want to limit player's choices when choosing a line up in a competitive game.

In your example, spys can stomp pub games if no one knows how to counter them, but you should also note that spies don't see any competitive play, and neither does engi/heavy/sniper/pyro for that matter, as other classes are far superior in terms of utility (scout/soly/demo) or just plain useful/essential (medic). LoL wouldn't want to limit their champions to be useful in public servers only, especially not if there's only going to be 40 of them at launch.


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