Thoughts on Vierge

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Haly

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
Please don't play him like this. You sat behind your tower the entire game and didn't help your team in group battles once.
Because they had a habit of ramboing the opponents while their teammates were on the other side of the map. Not to mention running into revealed, mushrooms, being baited into traps, creeping at low health near wards. In fact, I was the only thing stopping the other team from completely steamrolling us because I played defensively.

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Baleful Strike's damage increases and cooldown decreases per level without increasing the mana cost at all. It is a better primary nuke than Dark Matter if you have trouble landing the meteor. While you say you got all of 11 AP for an entire game, I usually get that much before even going back to base once XD.
I don't have trouble landing the Meteor, and Baleful Strike is 75 mana at rank 1. At rank 4, Dark Matter is 150 mana and can clear entire creep waves with a single cast.

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Buffing the damage on the ultimate would be going overboard--if you've farmed well enough it will do 1600 damage to targets with about 2000 mana, and still over 1000 to targets that haven't bought any sort of mana items. Sure, it's tough to get to this point, but like you said, playing semi-cowardly is pretty helpful. His stun has huge range, so you can help your team with that even while you're quite far from the tanks and blades.
At that point where you're "farmed enough", you should either already be winning or losing. In the case of the former, it's basically a "win more" nuke. In the latter scenario, you're going to lose, meganuke or not.

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I do think he could be buffed in some way--Dark Matter not playing a sound effect would be nice. Or playing a sound effect but not the visual marker. It hits hard, and it can be landed in team battles easily--if it doesn't land, simple casting it in a certain area causes people to change their tactics, even if they don't actually have to worry about the damage.
I play with the sound off so I don't notice these things. But I don't like the circle at the strike zone. It should last for 0.5 seconds so they know that I cast it, but they shouldn't be able to think "Oh, that's where it's going to land so I'm not going to stand around there." I don't like skills that rely on people being unobservant.

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The problem is his 'anti-mage' capacity is only true if his ultimate is available. His passive doesn't steal enough AP to be significant, and since you're probably going to be in the back lines anyways, it rarely comes into play.
I think the whole "Instagib target caster" isn't very much in theme with Veigar's style of hitting hard and often. If anything, it should use 25% of your max mana instead.

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What if a percentage of the damage of his last spell turned into mana regenerated over time, or something of that nature? Would make Baleful Strike more spammable.
It would overlap too much with Annie's spell. I'd like a decreased mana cost in general so it's spammable, and faster travel velocity so the creep doesn't die on the way and wasting your spell. The same thing goes for Primordial Blast, I've had too many heroes die while the spell was in transit, wasting the whole thing.

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The cooldown reducing talents and codex alone make his lvl 5 nuke have a roughly 3 second cooldown that hits like a truck. If you play with a hero-killer build and max your nuke early instead of dark matter and stack AP items and runes, Viegar is a very big threat.
It also puts you in threatening range of melee, can only hit one target, has no farming capabilities late game. AP runes are worthless beyond level 6, I have an all Potency book and it gives me a whopping static +27 AP . The only hero who makes it really effective is Evelynn, and that's because Hate Spike is cheap early game. For the price of two Balefuls, you can cast Dark Matter, which deals more damage, is better at farming, hits multiple targets. In group fights its pretty easy to land it so it hits at least one target in addition to taking out creeps. If your Baleful Strike hits like a truck, my Dark Matter hits like a steamroller.

Note, I use my cooldown book with Veigar, along with 9/0/21 mastery. With a single Soul Shroud, I cap out at 40% cooldown reduction. I'm going to try a game where I level Baleful Strike over Dark Matter but I'm not optimistic about the results.

I thought of a way Primordial Strike can be a more reliable "You Die Now" nuke. (All numbers are just placeholders)

Primordial Burst:

1200/90/60 second CD
150/300/450 Mana + Remaining mana pool.
Instantly blasts target champion, dealing 75%/100%/125% (+ 0.1% for each point of AP) of your max mana as magic damage. If you deal a killing blow, you regain 500/1000/1500 mana and gain 10 AP.

The thing I don't like about this is that Veigar is an AP stacking hero, not a mana pool stacking hero, although the two tend to overlap. But at least it fits more than an ult that punishes large mana pools.


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Solus

Senior Member

08-15-2009

So get a Chalice, tear of the goddess, farm for 15 minutes and then run around with a 2500~ damage insta-gib?


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Haly

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Chalice is **** on casters, the more mana you have the harder it is to use it up, the less bonus you get from a depleted mana pool. I'd just get Tear of the Goddess and run around instagibbing people, yeah pretty much. If you've played DotA you'd know Harbringer of Doom's entire strategy revolved around stacking mana so he can autoattack things to death. Again, it doesn't seem like a Veigar-ish move, but it's what comes to mind when I read "Primordial Burst".

But, mind you, 2500 is a pretty hard figure to hit even if you rush Tears of the Goddess, since Veigar needs a healthy dose of defense to move in and out of engagements. I usually use Soul Shroud and Guardian's Angel for my tanking items. Rylai's and Lichbane aren't that great on him because he's not an attacking champion, I can't think of other health + mana items that are good on him.

I finished a game where I leveled Dark Matter last. Went 14/2/7, still lost. Final items: Soul Shroud, Sorceror's Boots, Mejai's Soulstealer, Archangel Staff, Guardian Angel, Zonya's Ring. Somewhere around 2700 mana and 630+ AP before the game ended. Rethinking a few things.

I see Sigurd's point. I did nothing but last hit with Baleful, early game to build up AP. It wasn't significant, but it did allow me to get some early kills I wouldn't have gotten with Dark Matter. It's very strong provided the opponents are squishy. Regen kills it dead, but it also rapes heroes like Teemo and Twitch. The thing I noticed is that the range is a pretty large issue for a primary nuke. I can't hit someone without putting myself in range of a snare, so when I was aggressive, I had to be very aggressive. All other times I was still playing defensively.

I'm not sure how much I gained from Baleful that round, it must've exceeded 30-40 since I got a few hero kills with it and Primoridal Strike. One glaring weakness is that, while it's a pretty good weapon against aggressive squishies, it leaves you at the mercy of heroes and tanks. I lost a few towers because I couldn't kill the creeps in time to scare off the pushing champions. Also, I noticed I got my items far slower than if I had leveled Dark Matter instead, which isn't a surprise.

Seems to me that Baleful Strike really shines when the opponents have squishy heroes. Otherwise, Dark Matter is a better choice. It still has range issues and the projectile speed isn't fast enough. Same goes for Primordial Strike, which should really be instant. Also, I've tried alternating between Baleful Strike and Dark Matter so while maxing out Event Horizon and found that both of the skills were too weak to fufill their respective functions.

Anyway, I'd like the following changes instead:

1) Baleful Strike's Mana cost to go from 35/45/55/65/75
2) Baleful Strike's range to be increase to be a little closer to Dark Matter's range.
3) Projectile speed increased to compensate for range.

For Primordial Burst, I'd like to see a redesign so it's more reliable, has a longer range and fits Veigar's overall theme of AP, AP and more AP.

Also, a total redesign of Entropy. Which is completely useless.


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Drakes

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Senior Member

08-15-2009

I feel baleful strike is fine, compared to dark matter it is a very reliable nuke. It hits more reliably, and its cooldown becomes fairly short when maxed. You could probably shoot out 3 baleful's in the time it takes for dark matter to cooldown.


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Haly

Senior Member

08-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakes View Post
I feel baleful strike is fine, compared to dark matter it is a very reliable nuke. It hits more reliably, and its cooldown becomes fairly short when maxed. You could probably shoot out 3 baleful's in the time it takes for dark matter to cooldown.
If you can get off 3 Baleful Strike one right after the other then your opponents are doing something wrong. Casting Baleful Puts you within range of so many stuns and snares it's not funny.

At Rank 4, Baleful strike is 3.8 seconds CD, Dark Matter is a little over 9 seconds. Dark Matter deals more damage, and hits more targets. I assume, if you're within range to cast Baleful then you can also set up a Horizon + Dark Matter combo, which is a lot more devastating. I just feel Baleful could use a boost in same way to give a choice between it and Dark Matter. I know lots of you feel Baleful is fine and I can see your point, but in my opinion Dark Matter is so much better.


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Athena

Junior Member

08-15-2009

Playing Veigar is kind of fun because it gives you the perfect excuse to killsteal (don't blame me I need the AP!!!).

Seriously though he is a fairly balanced hero. He has nukes AND an AOE. Sure he isn't the easiest champion to play, but I think that makes him all the more fun. Aiming Dark Matter is easiest in team battles since they often miss the casting animation in large battles. I just wish his ultimate was a bit flashier (something like a gigantic lightning bolt or power zap, just looks a bit boring at the moment).


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Lifeform

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Senior Member

08-17-2009

Veigar is fine except for his innate passive. If you're getting such a small amount of free AP from baleful, you're doing it wrong, at rank 5 with an AP item it one hits ranged minions quite easily.

Also, Haly, you probably should learn the actual numbers if you're going to try to correct people on their numbers. Dark Matter's base cooldown is 14 seconds. That means there is plenty of time for 3 balefuls while Dark Matter is cooling. And it's really not hard to use all 3 spells in a fight. I play this guy a ton and do it all the time.


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