Sniperness' Caitlyn - L2Wanted

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Eledhan

Senior Member

03-16-2011

Sniperness...

I'd love it if you and I could play a custom to see how my Ashe build fares against your Caitlyn build...

I know you like to focus on early domination for Cait, and I kinda do the same with Ashe (albeit in a different way). I'd be curious to see just how competent our respective builds and strategies are against each other...

My user name in-game is the same as this profile...shoot me an request and invite, and we'll have a bit of a sparring match!


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Kamaro

Senior Member

03-16-2011

dude l2wanted..http://l2wanted.ucoz.com/


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

03-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Sniperness...

I'd love it if you and I could play a custom to see how my Ashe build fares against your Caitlyn build...

I know you like to focus on early domination for Cait, and I kinda do the same with Ashe (albeit in a different way). I'd be curious to see just how competent our respective builds and strategies are against each other...

My user name in-game is the same as this profile...shoot me an request and invite, and we'll have a bit of a sparring match!
sure, friend request sent


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ZehNetoBR

Senior Member

03-18-2011

So, thanks to Search I can read this topic again.

Some people failed to understand my point, or so it seems. That's a shame, really, because I wouldn't post here saying all I said if I had no freaking idea about Caitlyn.

Anyway...how's the build going, after all the new patches? The changes on her passive are likely to increase her dps, or so it seems...haven't tested it yet, will do it ASAP.


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J0ko

Senior Member

03-18-2011

Sniper, you're making me want to buy Caitlyn now. Stop it.

(Don't.)


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Fluffyburrito

Senior Member

03-18-2011

As an avid Caitlyn player, I agree with some points in your guide, but don't particularly like the build. I think it is too "set in stone" as well. Incoming wall of text:

First off, the E>Q is not your computer's graphics. It is actually intended for Caitlyn to use 2 skills at once. For example, you can use E>W at the same time for a massive escape potential. (Flings you backwards while placing a trap where you will land. The enemy won't expect it and will hit the trap, making them snared, securing your escape. Holding down shift to smartcast this makes it a LOT easier)

You can use any two skills at the same time, but I find that using a combination of W>E or Q is the most clunky and should probably be avoided. Here are, in my opinion, some of the more useful combinations:

E>Q towards or away from the enemy. If you are chasing, fire E away from yourself and use Q in mid-flight to get that last, killing hit on a runner. The q will trigger immediately at the end of your flight path. So satisfying to pull off. This combo is also useful for harassment if the enemy relies on getting close to you for some sort of high damaging attack. For instance, Xin Zhao audacious charges you, you can E backwards and Q them.

Q>W, not very flashy or great overall, but useful if you think the enemy will try to harass you in the charge up time or they are extremely close. The trap will land in the middle of your Q and will trigger 0.5-1 second after it is over if the enemy is standing on it.

There's a few other combos, but you get the idea.

Next, onto your build.

Unfortunately, I don't think it is a great build overall unless you end up being fed.

Boots X 3 health pots: I agree with boots X 3 health pots to start: pretty solid choice, although I usually start with doran's blade myself for a bit more harassment, however I do pack teleport so I don't necessarily need the health pots as much as others might. (Love it for teleporting to another lane to snipe and get a kill as well)

Berserker Grieves: This is where I start to disagree a bit. I personally use BG but you won't need them this early into the laning phase. It's definitely more worth it to start saving for something like a BF sword at this point. Yes, the extra movespeed might help a little bit, but the attack speed will not unless you are in an extended fight. (Again, not going to happen in the laning phase) The BF sword/damage item, however, adds extraordinary damage to your harassment (particularly Q and R, and auto-attacks) and lets you dominate the lane and, once you push someone out, will literally mean the difference between downing the tower or not downing the tower in time for the enemy to cover or return.

Brutalizer: I don't particularly get this. The little bit of cool-down is... well, nice, but definitely not needed and won't make a significant difference. The armor pen, which is why I think you go for it, is also nice but quints+red armor pen is usually enough this early on. This item isn't usually good only by itself unless you upgrade to ghostblade, which I don't see you do.

Infinity Edge (BF Sword -> Pickaxe -> Cape): I'm not saying this is a bad item, but going for it at this point in the game will only work if you are extremely fed. 4k gold is nothing to sneeze at. I doubt the game will still be going by the point you end up buying it. An I.E. rush, as in, the first big item before you'd get boots2 or something like a brutilizer, is only particularly useful for Ashe as an AD ranged carry, as she gets a "guaranteed" crit. Basically, I'm not saying that an I.E. is bad, but you get it WAY too mid-game-ish. The brutalizer, I think, is what slows you down too much to afford it before the end of the laning phase, meaning you'll have to get kills and be fed for it to be bought. The only time I end up buying I.E. as Caitlyn is as a 5th or 6th item. You'll end up in the middle of building this by time the teamfights have started, so unless you're extremely confident, the fact that you won't have any survivability is going to hurt. Caitlyn has great escape abilities, but she can't use them if she is cc'd to death and you are the focus. I think the brutilizer slows this down too much if you truly want to build an I.E.

Phantom Dancer: Great item, but concerned about the placement. You won't be able to afford it until really late in the game, and I'd definitely get survivability first. 5th or 6th item as survivability is a pretty bad idea, no offense. 3rd or 4th item makes you a lot hardier in a teamfight. Your 5th and 6th items, with a build this pricey, will not happen unless the game goes into extreme overtime or you are utterly fed to oblivion. If you get focused you will die, despite Caitlyn's great escape abilities. No champ can survive being focused first in a direct 5 vs 5 teamfight if the enemy has any sort of cc.

Please note: I'm unclear as to whether or not you mean these situational items to be purchased "before" (Like, if you're dying a lot choose one of these) or after the phantom dancer, so please take it all with a grain of salt.

Here's what I would suggest, but it is YOUR guide so take it with a grain of salt:

-Keep the boots x3.
-Get a brutalizer next instead of zerk greaves, as it helps you out a lot more in-lane... you are fast enough without them
-Depending on your next bluepill, get either zerk grieves or a ghostblade. A ghostblade, actually, is nearly as good as I.E. and not nearly as expensive. You just lose the crit chance, which a green elixir will give
-Get zerk grieves if you haven't already
-At this point, always chug a green potion. I see no mention of elixir's in your guide before PD, but the green pots will let you crit a lot more and adds attack speed... extremely important to have
-Get some form of survivability. I don't mean necessarily a full survivability item, maybe just a negatron cloak or chain vest. Anything to increase your survivability will drastically increase your teamfighting abilities. At this point in the game they are just starting or are about to start

This is definitely how I'd start, but in general I wouldn't recommend a brutalizer just by itself, or if it is by itself, it is too late at this point to rush an I.E. without getting fed. A black cleaver/ghostblade at this point will be a lot easier to farm.

Last suggestion, I promise... Caitlyn doesn't have a reliable way to slow down the enemy. Buying a phage for 1340 gold will fix this and net a lot of kills that could have been missed. Upgrading to a frozen mallet will fix this problem completely.

My build is pretty different from yours, and like I said, I disagree with a lot of it, but please don't think I'm a jerk. I also do not claim that my build is better or that your build just sucks. I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I think the build is missing out on a lot of potential and, especially, survivability and timing.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

03-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
As an avid Caitlyn player, I agree with some points in your guide, but don't particularly like the build. I think it is too "set in stone" as well. Incoming wall of text:
Yeah, wall of text is right!

I have simply cut out the details in order to respond without generating a double wall...

Quote:
Skill usage
I think anything related to the tactics for a champion is really good to add to any guide. Good advice.

Quote:
Next, onto your build.

Unfortunately, I don't think it is a great build overall unless you end up being fed.
Okay, here's where your entire premise is wrong, in my opinion. Getting "fed" while playing mid does not necessarily mean you are getting kills. In mid, it's all about who can out-farm the other. If that's done by simply last hitting better, forcing your opponent to compete with the tower for last hits, zoning, harassing, or simply getting kills, it doesn't matter, as long as you have more gold to work with, or your champion has better scaling late game.

With Caitlyn's INSANE farming, pushing, zoning, and harassing abilities, she should be more "fed" than her opponent most of the time. Therefore, just like with most ranged AD carries, Caitlyn can build the most expensive and time consuming items much faster than other champions. I regularly have Greaves & IE prior to the 20 minute mark, even on close games, and that's when playing as Ashe, who doesn't have all the same early game benefits that Caitlyn does.

On to items...

Quote:
Brutalizer:
Just because he doesn't mention upgrading it immediately doesn't mean that he wouldn't do so late game when he has a full build (if a game gets that far). This is a great item since he is going with the AD marks instead of Apen as it grants him a little more damage.


Quote:
Infinity Edge (BF Sword -> Pickaxe -> Cape):
I really can't understand why you wouldn't rush this if you can out-farm, out-zone and out-harass your opponent...Perhaps the Brutalizer is delaying it a bit, but it's still the best item for her.

Quote:
Phantom Dancer:
PD after an IE is the best choice for auto attack DPS, assuming LW (or other Apen) isn't necessary. The additional crit chance grants you a massive boost to average damage per attack, since you have an extra 30% chance to crit.

Oh, and you said some things about survivability...

Unless Caitlyn builds damage items, she simply cannot do anything in fights...whether she has survivability or not...Move speed in itself IS a form of survivability, and PD should grant all the MS needed for most situations.

Quote:
other stuff...
I think you missed out on the concept he posted in the guide that includes a Banshee's Veil...and why would a ranged AD carry want to get any form of armor late game? If they're doing it right, they should be out-damaging their opponent's ranged carry, and melee shouldn't be getting to you, or you're dead regardless.

His build specifically says...

Greaves, Brutalizer, IE, PD, Situational...

I think that should be clear enough...

As for green elixirs...they are useless until you get IE...and by that point, any time you're going back to base, you should be grabbing PD, BV, or other components.


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Fluffyburrito

Senior Member

03-18-2011

Honestly, you're half right about survivability. I end up solo queing 99% of the time and therefore do not trust my team to protect me.

However, when the enemy realizes you need to be focus'd down... they can accomplish it rather easily. The longer you delay Banshee's or even a negatron cloak, the greater you'll find that their AP burster will target you first in teamfights and melt your small and insignificant healthbar away, leaving it a 4 vs 5 situation. If they have any AD assassin ruining your day a chain vest alone will cut their damage on you by 30-40%. (I'm not sure of the exact numbers, please forgive me) After I.E. and brutilizer are finished, I find it hard to believe that unless you racked up a lot of kills, the game will still be continuing enough for you to finish PD. (It'll be extremely close to ended by that time, in the very least) I think chucking in even a small bit of survivability (maybe even just a cloak or chain vest) will be crucial to surviving once a teamfight starts. You can't survive to carry if you have no health or defense.

About the brutilizer, I must have misread that they have AD marks. While this could open up a whole new can of beans as to whether those are viable, (*cough* the armor pen from marks would actually do more damage *cough cough*) I can understand why they go for brutilizer now.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

03-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
Honestly, you're half right about survivability. I end up solo queing 99% of the time and therefore do not trust my team to protect me.

However, when the enemy realizes you need to be focus'd down... they can accomplish it rather easily. The longer you delay Banshee's or even a negatron cloak, the greater you'll find that their AP burster will target you first in teamfights and melt your small and insignificant healthbar away, leaving it a 4 vs 5 situation. If they have any AD assassin ruining your day a chain vest alone will cut their damage on you by 30-40%. (I'm not sure of the exact numbers, please forgive me) After I.E. and brutilizer are finished, I find it hard to believe that unless you racked up a lot of kills, the game will still be continuing enough for you to finish PD. (It'll be extremely close to ended by that time, in the very least) I think chucking in even a small bit of survivability (maybe even just a cloak or chain vest) will be crucial to surviving once a teamfight starts. You can't survive to carry if you have no health or defense.

About the brutilizer, I must have misread that they have AD marks. While this could open up a whole new can of beans as to whether those are viable, (*cough* the armor pen from marks would actually do more damage *cough cough*) I can understand why they go for brutilizer now.
I feel that you are making rather one-sided assumptions. You can't just say "However, when the enemy realizes you need to be focus'd down... they can accomplish it rather easily." That's just not true. There are four other people on your team for the enemy to also worry about, and who also provide threats. Your survivability is not only a function of your items, but of how well you can position yourself in team fights and make use of your traps and E. Don't get me wrong, items like Veil and GA are very important and that's why I've included them in the item build, but the bottom lane is that you are an AD carry, not a tank. Your first priority should usually be buffing your auto attack. If you've ever heard people say that BigFatJiji is one of the best AD carries in this game, one of the reasons behind that is because he's simply a genius at team fight dynamics and manages to avoid getting focused by the enemy team while still being able to dish out damage. Positioning is one of the most subtle and complex things in this game and is the mark of a good AD carry.

Also, I've recently switched to armor pen marks and flat damage quints, (just forgot to update it here.) I've just noticed that a Doran's shield start along with the 9 in the defensive tree is a lot more common now so I like the extra armor pen. I might end up using full armor pen red/quints. Marks + Masteries gives 21 armor pen and that seems to be higher than most solo-mid base armor values for the early game.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

03-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
Also, I've recently switched to armor pen marks and flat damage quints, (just forgot to update it here.) I've just noticed that a Doran's shield start along with the 9 in the defensive tree is a lot more common now so I like the extra armor pen. I might end up using full armor pen red/quints. Marks + Masteries gives 21 armor pen and that seems to be higher than most solo-mid base armor values for the early game.
Actually, solo mid average values are below the 6 from masteries and the 10 from quints per your original build. At least at level 1...granted, they level up past that point pretty quickly.