AP kog Maw

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Narvuntien

Senior Member

05-26-2011

How much AP do think is a good amount to be effective.

How much Mpen assuming opponents have at least a banchee's viel of MR, which I think is a fair assumption.

I had played a bot game managed to get.

465 AP, 49 Mpen (15%), 2600 hp and 1.5 attack speed.

It certainly farms worse than the AD build... i am trying both.. and playing around as you do with a new champion...

I have no intention of having optimal runes... using my caster ones.


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OtterlyAdorable

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Member

05-26-2011

Farms worse?? Maybe if you're using auto-attacks to farm, but AP Kog' should be able to 2 shot minion waves with void ooze and an artillery bomb on the caster minions... And then auto attack the 3 melee minions left that have a sliver of health left.


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Narvuntien

Senior Member

05-26-2011

hmm after some practice I think I have worked that out...

you need a bit of AP before that works though.. the attack speed build can be built rather cheaply in comparason.

AD has good early farm and AP better later farm

my build
Tear
Sorc shoes
Rylais
Malady
Deathcap
AA
Banchee's viel.


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Fluffyburrito

Senior Member

05-26-2011

You would need full mejai's stacks, deathcap, and would then still need more AP than item slots provide.

Kog Maw's ult is a 0.3 AP ratio. Just because it has an AP ratio doesn't mean you should try an AP Kog Maw build.

It is a horrible idea to build focusing on one skill with a 0.3 AP ratio. Miss Fortune has 3 different skills that scale with AP as well, but no one builds her AP as it is horribly ineffective and doesn't offer as much to the team as going AD. You wouldn't do near enough damage to carry and wouldn't have any presence in a teamfight. Kog Maw is the same way. Going AS, AD, or trying hybrid is the best way to go.

Kog Maw's ult is meant to pick off runners and poke. It cannot stand on it's own as a strategy.

I know trying a full ULT Kog Maw build sounds fun, but going pure AP is not the best way to try it. If you really want to do so, try going hybrid instead. Kog Maw's ult has a 0.5 bonus AD ratio that adds to the AP ratio now. This means hybrid items would add a lot more damage to your ult strategy.

Hextech gunblade after a tear or chalice would be an obvious choice, Nashor's could give you attack speed and AP, rageblade could as well, etc. Try these out instead and see how they work. (Personally I still don't think they get the job done, but I have yet to try a hybrid build with an ult focus in mind. Going Hybrid would allow your ult to do more damage though.)

It's also important to note that against competent teams wiping out a minion wave may sound cool and all, but pushing the lane like that is asking for a gank. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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Degnared

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
You would need full mejai's stacks, deathcap, and would then still need more AP than item slots provide.

Kog Maw's ult is a 0.3 AP ratio. Just because it has an AP ratio doesn't mean you should try an AP Kog Maw build.

It is a horrible idea to build focusing on one skill with a 0.3 AP ratio. Miss Fortune has 3 different skills that scale with AP as well, but no one builds her AP as it is horribly ineffective and doesn't offer as much to the team as going AD. You wouldn't do near enough damage to carry and wouldn't have any presence in a teamfight. Kog Maw is the same way. Going AS, AD, or trying hybrid is the best way to go.

Kog Maw's ult is meant to pick off runners and poke. It cannot stand on it's own as a strategy.

I know trying a full ULT Kog Maw build sounds fun, but going pure AP is not the best way to try it. If you really want to do so, try going hybrid instead. Kog Maw's ult has a 0.5 bonus AD ratio that adds to the AP ratio now. This means hybrid items would add a lot more damage to your ult strategy.

Hextech gunblade after a tear or chalice would be an obvious choice, Nashor's could give you attack speed and AP, rageblade could as well, etc. Try these out instead and see how they work. (Personally I still don't think they get the job done, but I have yet to try a hybrid build with an ult focus in mind. Going Hybrid would allow your ult to do more damage though.)

It's also important to note that against competent teams wiping out a minion wave may sound cool and all, but pushing the lane like that is asking for a gank. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I agree with this. Personally, I find that the most effective ways to build him are AS/AD and AS/Mpen. The AD build is good, but I find that you just end up as a slightly sub par ranged carry, and most of your skills (including your ult) get left behind in terms of their effectiveness, so I don't bother with it. The .5 bonus AD scaling on the ult sounds nice, but you need a LOT of AD to see any real improvement in damage.

The AS/Mpen build (Malady, Madred's Bloodrazor, banshee's/mallet, Wit's end/Sword of the Divine, etc.) gives him a strong autoattack and keeps his spells relevant later into the game. You'll still have trouble against enemies stacking MR, but working in a voidstaff can solve that fairly well.

I've yet to extensively try a true hybrid build (Rageblade, Malady, Nashor's). It sounds good on paper, but I'm not convinced that Koggie can take full advantage of the Rageblade.

Just one note about farming with Kog, since you brought it up: once you can wipe out a minion wave in one go it's not always a bad idea to do it. If you find yourself facing a lane opponent that you're having trouble with, killing their minion wave outright will push yours into the tower, and usually all of the minions will die by the time the next wave comes, resetting it to middle each time. This gives you full gold and xp from each wave, makes your opponent compete with the tower for last hits, and after the enemy minions are dead, you can just retreat and sit under your tower until the next wave. Further, there's NOTHING they can do to stop it, since you can kill the wave from a pretty long distance. In long, uneventful games, I've even killed middle tower against theoretically stronger opponents just by getting a few minions hits each wave.


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Narvuntien

Senior Member

05-26-2011

When i said AD I meant the AS/on hit build... I have played it that previously... I am just exploring other options.

I am aware that you need 400 AP to match what Madreds offers and that is way more expensive to get 400 Ap than Madreds

But I am Trying the AP build.

Why?.. because it offers Mana and health Items.... there is some survivability in the AS/On hit build (MR, Armor) but there is none in the hybrid...except a little on Hextech.gunblade but it is a late game item.

Firstly yeah the AP ratio on the ulti is small, but it is higher than 0.3 because it does 150% to champions.... you seems to have focused on the Ulti but all his other abilities have AP ratios and fairly good ones.

One can argue that AS builds focus on only useing his W ability.

With the width increase to E I can now hit a whole team with it and Q is a nice nuke if you build AP.


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Draghinaazzo

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Ap kog is more viable than aspd kog. He has no escapes so 2000 range is kinda awesome.


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Zauren

Senior Member

05-26-2011

aspd kog is better then most aspd champions, especially given his Q's range is short but it's so powerful in team fights. But that doesn't make aspd any good.

I've found the very underused warden's mail to do a lot of good for him against melee who close well. 35 slow can get you away before the close cools down, or buy you time to use your E.


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Fluffyburrito

Senior Member

05-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narvuntien View Post
When i said AD I meant the AS/on hit build... I have played it that previously... I am just exploring other options.

I am aware that you need 400 AP to match what Madreds offers and that is way more expensive to get 400 Ap than Madreds

But I am Trying the AP build.

Why?.. because it offers Mana and health Items.... there is some survivability in the AS/On hit build (MR, Armor) but there is none in the hybrid...except a little on Hextech.gunblade but it is a late game item.

Firstly yeah the AP ratio on the ulti is small, but it is higher than 0.3 because it does 150% to champions.... you seems to have focused on the Ulti but all his other abilities have AP ratios and fairly good ones.

One can argue that AS builds focus on only useing his W ability.

With the width increase to E I can now hit a whole team with it and Q is a nice nuke if you build AP.
I'm sorry but there is no survivability in any side of that argument. "Survivability" is all about positioning, summoner spells, and tanks. Rylai's gives you 500 hp with no resists. You still melt. Banshee's veil is taken way too late, you'll feed the entire game until that moment. If you had 500 AP total you'd add 150 more damage to his ult and 350 to E. This is laughable. An AS build does more damage than your entire build in one auto-attack.


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seerieislee

Member

05-26-2011

Full ap seems to be spanking people for me right now, i go regrowth pendant and pot to start. you can't get pushed out of your lane if you just fire e and add w ocasionally to push them. Then go to philospher stone and boots, another philospher stone is next so that you littleraly can lane for 10-15min without any problem with mana and hp. magic pen boots and then malady-->deathcap e to w all day. at that point it drops everyone at least 25% if they get caught in e and a couple hits from w, they litterally cannot come close to you. then r is just bonus time. I just started takeing the 2vs 1 lane as kog and i outlaned the 2 every time.