Kayle build, problems transitioning to late game

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Antimodus

Junior Member

01-17-2010

As a preface, I'm pretty new at this game (2 weeks). I gravitated very quickly towards support champs like Kayle and Taric, then focused entirely on Kayle.
After a few games, I started feeling sort of ineffectual in pub games. If the team was too bad to cooperate a tanking/support build would be worthless, and if they were good, they won it almost on their own even if I made plenty of mistakes.
Besides, for a pure support role, I think I'd rather play Taric anyway. I wanted to be able to gank too.

I looked up the forum for builds and saw Raginald's AP build, which made it more fun for me. I also made a few small tweaks to it. Since I'm usually soloing mid I get a pretty strong offensive midgame, but when everyone's level 15+ I once again devolve into a mobile invulnerability potion for carries, and an aura carrier at best. Maybe it's not an inherent and I can fix it with some better choice of items.

Anyway, here's what I figured out thus far.

Summoner spells: Ignite, Clarity
Great for soloing mid. I can push even against ranged champs like Ashe or Sivir, though it's not easy vs. skilled players.

Abilities: always select with the priority R > Q > W > E, exceptions are W at level 4 and E at level 5. Sometimes earlier E if my opponent seems careless enough.

Start: Doran's ring, HP potion.
1st: Doran's ring, basic boots, HP potions if needed
2nd: AP tome -> Sheen (if I get enough gold), boots of swiftness, or merc treads if facing CC heavy team. Also, experimenting with sorc boots + elixir of brilliance.

The idea is to get to level 9+ to max Q, and use your crazy burst damage (w/ Ignite if needed) to gank, either in your own line (tower diving with R) or into one of the other lines on a lower-level target.

Mid-game and beyond:
If I manage to gank a lot, I may upgrade Sheen to lichbane, or make a deathfire grasp people at my Elo will insist on not getting any RM, and besides Codex is great on Kayle with its -CD.

If my team has strong physical DPS, I start building stark's fervor, and sometimes Aegis, though it often comes online too late to really matter. My early game AP stacking makes no real difference in the end, and goes to waste basically.

The build relies on early lane domination, so the carries on my team will outlevel the carries on the other team, then press the advantage. Late game, I end up feeling my Q is useless even with lichbane + elixir.

I'm also very squishy late game. Need some kind of armor to fix that. I suppose something like Thornmail could do the job, but it's expensive, and Kayle is horrible at farming.


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AmyOverlord

Member

01-17-2010

Your problem is that Kayle is hard to farm with and she relies on assists/kills to get the items she needs.

She can really only play support or tank.

For support, don't expect to get over 5 kills. At all. Your job is to do minor heals and increase peoples' movement speed. Then you have Reckoning. Which can do some damage AND slow them. Her ranged AoE skill really isn't worth it.

As for a tank, Kayle is a godly tank. She can invuln herself, which lets your carries wail on them and dominate a team fight. She can heal herself while increasing her movement speed. Which just allows for her to get away or get in faster.


AP Kayle really has no viability late-game. The only thing Kayle is useful for late-game is, as you said, a walking invuln potion. All she does is invuln carries and slow people down. That's it. She's nothing more. Just have to get use to it.


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Antimodus

Junior Member

01-17-2010

of course, the problem with using Kayle as a tank is that she can be safely ignored by the rest of the opposing team. Kayle with invuln on herself and tanky items is almost completely harmless, which makes it basically a 4v5 fight for your team. Tanks need to present obstacles, like CC abilities (reckoning's slow is a joke late game), or some really strong auras like Taric's ult, in order to even be considered a target in a team fight.

No doubt Kayle's ult is awesome on one of the various imbal carries. Twitch, Yi and Poppy come to mind. I guess that's it then. Bummer.


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Baron Corm

Senior Member

01-17-2010

Sheen/Lich Bane on Kayle is a trap. Sure she's a "hybrid", but her cast-then-attack ability is sustained, unlike, say, Poppy's. My build is more like Berserker's Greaves, Mejai's Soulstealer, Phantom Dancer, Nashor's Tooth, Stark's Fervor, and Infinity Edge. The build order is pretty difficult since each item adds so much that you need.

With this build, you are more than just an invulnerability potion. You will never be wrecking things, though, unless your team is doing better than the other one and you're a bit overlevelled, in which case you will be.


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IceDive

Senior Member

01-17-2010

How do you ever finish such a build? I find that the game is almost always over when i get:

Nashor's, Berserker's and Lich bane and elixer of brilliance. That's a bit over 7k gold. You are either a farming god, or play very long games if you can complete that build you propose often. (or i am doing something wrong)

With the build i usually go with (as presented above) I do 500 damage with reckoning, instant 300+ heal and about 500 damage per hit after casting a spell with righteous fury up. This makes Kayle quite viable, even in late game imo. (her ulti can change the outcome of teamfights, but this is the same with any build)

Her biggest drawback is that, with 2200 health and no armor, she is quite fragile. However, while you inflict most of your damage ranged, this should not prove to be problematic.

The order i get my items, if you are interested is the following

Meki + Health pot

Sheen

Berserker's greaves

Meki -> fiendish -> nashor's

Sheen --> lich bane

I might write a full guide later...


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JDthewrecker

Junior Member

01-17-2010

i was trying a new build, which was ridiculous and stupid, and i may have gotten lucky with the players i played with,

Using +% attack speed to use as many swings as possible when using her righteous fury.

1st item -> Berserker's greaves

2nd - madreds razors ( little bit of d and helps kill off minions [MORE GOLD])

the next tiems are any which way i think, i havebt found a plus to getting one before the other

-malady

-(anything needing recurve bow) im partial to starting with sword of the divine for the 55% AS and the extra 100 magic damage on 4th swing with no chance of dodging


i usually have physical damage of around 120 but attack speed of 1.4~1.9 depending how long game is, thats friggin fastoo, then if kill someone its a snowball effect,

let me know how this is, and yes i am noobish :S


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IceDive

Senior Member

01-17-2010

At lvl 5, fury gives +30 damage + (.4*AP). Since you have no AP in this build, that's just + 30 damage. That is nowhere near good enough to base an entire build on. This build would work way better for Mater Yi for example, who can double his base damage for a while and has an ulti that increases his AS even more. So all together, I'd say this is a pretty stupid build.


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Grake

Senior Member

01-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyOverlord View Post
Your problem is that Kayle is hard to farm with and she relies on assists/kills to get the items she needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antimodus View Post
the problem with using Kayle as a tank is that she can be safely ignored by the rest of the opposing team. Kayle with invuln on herself and tanky items is almost completely harmless, which makes it basically a 4v5 fight for your team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDive View Post
At lvl 5, fury gives +30 damage + (.4*AP). Since you have no AP in this build, that's just + 30 damage. That is nowhere near good enough to base an entire build on. This build would work way better for Mater Yi for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDive View Post
Her biggest drawback is that, with 2200 health and no armor, she is quite fragile.
I'm not saying this to be mean, but kayle provides three things.
  • Slowing at early level ganking.
  • Invulnerability to other heroes in a fight.
  • Spending her money on items such as starks fervor, Aegis of the legion, and items to improve her survivability.

I don't call people out on it in-game, but kayle is a low-tier hero. I say this simply in hopes to improve your experience on League of Legends if you're finding you don't provide what your teammates do. Even using another tanking hero, its on very rare occasion that i can't solo a Kayle in a 1v1 fight. They're also usually played by an inexperienced player, which leads them to try push lanes alone late-game, and other poor decisions that leave them open to attack.

Whether you choose to continue using her is up to you, but know that lots of experience, skill, and a superior item build meerly makes her a mediocre hero against a strong team. I hate Yi, udyr, and heroes like that, so im not suggesting those either however.


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EugenusMaximus

Junior Member

01-18-2010

Hmm, I also agree that Kayle as AP isn't really worth it. If you want to deal some damage, other champions offer way better qualities in this area.

I play him a lot on EU with a build I've read in the US forum quite some time ago. Here is the item build:

Start:
1. Mana Manipulator 475 (Becomes Soul Shroud later on)

First visit at shop with 920;
2. Meki Pendant 390
3. Boots of Speed 350
4. Faerie Charm 180

Next items are hard to time as it pretty much depends on your situation when you get to the shop the next time with what money:

5. Fiendish Codex 855
6. Heart of Gold 975
7. Soul Shroud 1850 (as Mana Manipulator is already bought)
9. Berserkers Greave 570 (Basic Boots are already bought)
9. Stinger 720 (Faerie Charm was already bought)
10. Nashors Tooth

After that I usually go for Aegis of the Legion but even Nashors Tooth doesnt always gets finished. After that I have planed to buy the abyssal scepter but I never came that for so long.

The playstyle:

Pump out as much Reckonings as you can to keep your opponents low on HP and drive them back. You should get an advantage when you harrassing as hard as you do and hopefully has the skills to do so too (But she can lane with almost everyone). As the mate is having a benefit from the mana manipulator too there are not many combos that dont get pushed back against this playstyle. (Enemy Sorakas can be pain though as you're damage gets pretty much compensated)

With a bit of luck you will get an assist or kill until ~ lvl 5. With lane mates like Sivir you might be even able to destroy a tower quite early. Both events make it possible to go back and get the first 920 gold item bundle. Whether you gain this extra gold or not, try to stay on your lane as long as you got 920.

After that, the critical time beginns. You will be able to spam quite some heals/speedbuffs + Enemy Slows which are a great addition to early time fights. The bubble is something you can hardly explain but feel during the when it has to be made. Using the bubble for offensive moves requires good comunication with your mates.

You can also stay at the front in situations where others have to leave. I like to compare her from her style to the old football player Franz Beckenbauer (Der Kaiser). She needs to rotate between the several places of action, always ready to heal/bubble or slow to catch loners during the rotations.

Also her Auras (her passive, Soul Shroud, Aegis of Legion) give the team a deciding buff, which also compensates her general lack of damage in the late game. In this item config you shouldn't be as fragile as with an AP build too even though you should not forget that you're still not a tank.

Anyway, I could extend this quite a bit but this is generally quite theorycrafted. Try the item build and make your own thoughts. For me it works quite well. In this style, Kayle is one of those chars that couldn't look any more ****ty on the scoreboard but still couldn't have a greater influence to the outcome of whole team.

Don't expect to be the top ganker with this build that will be celebreated/hated by your mates/enemys. You are support in a very unspectacular but effective way.


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Antimodus

Junior Member

01-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grake View Post
I'm not saying this to be mean, but kayle provides three things.
  • Slowing at early level ganking.
  • Invulnerability to other heroes in a fight.
  • Spending her money on items such as starks fervor, Aegis of the legion, and items to improve her survivability.

I don't call people out on it in-game, but kayle is a low-tier hero. I say this simply in hopes to improve your experience on League of Legends if you're finding you don't provide what your teammates do. Even using another tanking hero, its on very rare occasion that i can't solo a Kayle in a 1v1 fight. They're also usually played by an inexperienced player, which leads them to try push lanes alone late-game, and other poor decisions that leave them open to attack.

Whether you choose to continue using her is up to you, but know that lots of experience, skill, and a superior item build meerly makes her a mediocre hero against a strong team. I hate Yi, udyr, and heroes like that, so im not suggesting those either however.

Interesting.
You put Yi and Udyr also in the low-tier category? I'm especially puzzled about Udyr. Also, wasn't/isn't Raginald a high ranking player that used Kayle as main?

As for Kayle players being noobs well yea, I am one too, but I think I am improving. I'm caught out of position far less often now. I still often make the mistake of helping an ally that can't really be saved and getting killed myself.

W and R have crazy range. If you act like support for your team, stay in the back and take advantage of the range and only nuke when the other team's carry goes into rambo mode on your team, you won't die as often. Tanking items are unnecessary because once again, the other team will only target you if they know they can kill you easily, you are not much of a threat anyway.

I find that focusing on AP and buying DFG keeps the nuking viable into the late game, sure you won't combo someone out of the fight like Viegar does with DFG and primordial, but hurt them enough to make a difference in a fight aside from just using bubble and auras and hoping your team pulls through.


I admit using pure support items is probably a better idea in high Elo matches. Maybe use summoner spell Rally, and after getting Sheen, I'd buy Starks and Aegis. It's stronger when the team is cooperating effectively. But then, Taric is probably a better choice at this aura-carrying build.

IMO the half-assed attempts at getting a little damage, AS or armor are futile. Your auto-attack still sucks, and even with good armor you're still too harmless to tank for your team.


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