The "real" problem with phys carries

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Tyrese

Member

01-16-2010

Many people have made posts complaining about the imbalance between a magic / support hero vs the physical carries.

Contrary to the crying i think this game is mostly balanced amongst damage dealers whether you are a physical carry or a spell carry. But, and this is big a ryze can wipe ur whole team facerolling his keyboard but after hes done he will spend the next 5 minutes hitting a tower for 50 damage. On the same token a Yi or Udyr can do the same amount of killing by right clicking the other team, you can then proceed to destroy ur entire base in the same time it takes for a ryze to get a building down to half.

I;m not sure what the anwser is, let magic hit towers? And the reduction of tower armor only compounds the problem. I'm sure the reasoning behind the armor reduction over time is to insure quick games, but it only makes physical carries 100x better, because ultimately the nexus is your victory goal not kills.

No gold loss upon death contributes to carries greatness as well.

Not to mention tanks have it the roughest of everyone, physical carries have a myriad of on-hit and effect items to combat tanks but what do they have? Oh heres armor and hp, yeah thats what they need when the opposing carry can pretty much negate any amount of armor with a cleaver and last whisperer.


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Slowdown

Senior Member

01-16-2010

Physical buy items and become faster and faster just with auto attacks.
Magics buy items and become just more powerfull IF there spells aren't on cooldown.
Tanks buy items and ... still can't survive very well as there is to much damage incomming.

Tryed a MP/AP mix Poppy and after using a ability I got NON CRITS with 1300 damage. Let them crit and you end up with 2600+++ damage from auto attacks.

That's just plain wrong .


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Tyrese

Member

01-16-2010

I think u missed the whole point. Don't get me started on poppy though lol she is so horribly designed.


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Slowdown

Senior Member

01-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maww View Post
I think u missed the whole point. Don't get me started on poppy though lol she is so horribly designed.
hehe, no, I just used her as excample.

Another example:
I love Janna with magic power items. But just to get the Golembuff I need time hitting him again and again and again with 90 to 100 damage from auto attack and using half my mana (till late game). Then short before I finaly get him down some random carry (Twitch, Yi, Shako) walk along and auto attack him with ~500 damage "stealing" the buff.

Biside of the far to high damage per hit becouse of broken crit-damage there are some more problems :/.

Solution would be, to make ALL auto attacks absolut independend from items. Or change the mechanic for tanks and casters so they get a bonus to auto attacks from magic power and life.

Tanks: for all 100 life they do additional 1 damage with auto attacks
Max life I saw was around 10000k from ChoKa. So he would get 100 bonus to his auto attacks.
Caster: for all 10 MP they do additional 1 damage with auto attacks.
500 to 700 MP are common numbers endgame. So there auto attacks would do additional 50 to 70 damage.

This are no real big numbers (my Janna would go from 90 to mayb 150 damage with auto attacks) but they would defenitly help to get closer while creeping neutrals.



PS: and as counterpart for "ignoring 40% of armor/magic resit" there should be an item with "lower physical/magic damage of nearb enemys by 40%" .
Of corse 2 different items each around 3500 gold, so it does not become to easy to counter all damage!


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togarda

Senior Member

01-16-2010

@slowdown

reducing physical damage income by 40% would be insanely owerpowered and would be a "must-get" item. Because seriously...it completely nullfies everyone who attacks with auto-attacks (yi, twitch, trist... ok maybe twitch is ok...) and also 700 mana is pretty low if you're stacking mana... you could get like 2-3k mana and that would give you 300 more attack (!)

@Maww

Tanks aren't THAT underpowered. I've seen a cho'gath do a 25- something in a game. They can also tower-dive and they're near IMPOSSIBLE to kill when you're alone. And a good caster can easily shut-down a carry, as long as it's not twitch because then everyone is screwed >.<. But zilean can, for example, slow them down, time bomb them, use rewind, instantly time-bomb then again and then speed himself up, they will chase but will not be able to get to him, he uses rewind again, slows them and time bombs them, then he can just chase them down and if he made an error he can just ress himself.


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Tyrese

Member

01-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by togarda View Post
@slowdown

reducing physical damage income by 40% would be insanely owerpowered and would be a "must-get" item. Because seriously...it completely nullfies everyone who attacks with auto-attacks (yi, twitch, trist... ok maybe twitch is ok...) and also 700 mana is pretty low if you're stacking mana... you could get like 2-3k mana and that would give you 300 more attack (!)

@Maww

Tanks aren't THAT underpowered. I've seen a cho'gath do a 25- something in a game. They can also tower-dive and they're near IMPOSSIBLE to kill when you're alone. And a good caster can easily shut-down a carry, as long as it's not twitch because then everyone is screwed >.<. But zilean can, for example, slow them down, time bomb them, use rewind, instantly time-bomb then again and then speed himself up, they will chase but will not be able to get to him, he uses rewind again, slows them and time bombs them, then he can just chase them down and if he made an error he can just ress himself.
I think u might be high if u think tanks are hard to kill. They are roasted by armor pen builds. As a side note Zilean is an underpowered hero and no one would be running from the hero they can 2 shot and then 1 shot if he ults lol.


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edino

Member

01-16-2010

LOL NOOB heard of lichbane? i can drop towers under 10 secounds with decent ap.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

01-16-2010

Currently, I'm inclined to think not-ranged DPS/tanks are a tad underpowered, with a few exceptions.

As a caster *cough*Veigar*cough*, it's easy to amass a gigantic quantity of AP, which ignores armor, and then buy a Lich Bane, which turns that AP into one massive damage spike on your auto-attack, which ignores magic resist.

*shrug*

Then the whole can of worms on harassing and being god****ed impossible to catch if you have a slow effect.


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Xenova

Member

01-16-2010

Like i've said before and i'll say it again.

The damage in this game (physical and magical) is TOO HIGH, period.

If it was lower no one would be dropping teams effortlessly or downing turrets in seconds or before the useless tower finishes off every last minion and decides to shoot the champion.

The problem is phys damage is too high 100% of the time, magic damage is too high when theyre all off cooldown, Game design FLAW.


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Tyrese

Member

01-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by edino View Post
LOL NOOB heard of lichbane? i can drop towers under 10 secounds with decent ap.
Is 1 attack doing 300-500 extra damage really at all equivalent to a carry doing 250 a swing 3 times as fast? lol its not and thats silly to use that as a counter.