The problem with "Carries".

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Ragamor

Senior Member

01-16-2010

Quote:
In group fights I think most of these are counted by ranged burst damage, AE and CC but solo carries have a large advantage.
Super ultimates and dps is the king of team fight. Just a shame most casters and supports got neihter.

Team fights are won at the 6 seconds mark. Basically as a burst champion or someone relying on cooldowns you eleminate yourself as a threat for the rest of the duration of the fight.

Best champions are these with dps and super ultimate like Twitch, as you don't gimp yourself when your abilitys are on cooldown but you also get a i win button to rock your enemys.


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Zeta

Senior Member

01-16-2010

There's also the issue of counters.

What counters mages and CC?

Cleanse, Mercury's Treads, Banshee's Veil, Silence, Sash.

What counters are there to DPS?

Warden's Mail, Blind, and Thornmail. There's just not as many options.

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Things which I think Carries have over Magic:

- Greater ease destroying towers as many magic powers don't affect towers

- Greater ease destroying High hit point mobs as melee/Life leech is more effective than AP items. Also some powers don't work on mobs eg Nunu can't consume on the dragon.

- Better synergy with Lizard buff for melee meaning perma snares. Perma snares will pretty much make 1v1 fights quite one sided.

- Better synergy with melee and Life steal. Theres no item that make AP moves life steal like melee attacks do. Meaning when I play casters I tend to bp more, instead of just chewing through some creeps to regain health

- Better aura items and buffs for melee (Starks Fervor is better than anything you can get for mages) buffs like Nunus (+60% atk spd) is better than any AP buff I know of. +60% atk spd is a huge DPS increase. Imagine a champion with a buff that did -60% CD (yes I know its not comparable like that, but just think how much more DPS that buff is).

- Banshee's veil means a carry has a considerable advantage against magic users. especially 1v1. 1 spell absorb will stop you getting burst down and maybe CCed, then carries tend to hit before the CD is over.

- Bushes blocking visibility means melee can get close to mages easier and its extremely difficult to get them off you (Lizard buff, Phage, etc). Again in group fights this benefit goes both ways, but in 1v1 this is a bigger benefit to a melee soloer over a caster.


In group fights I think most of these are counted by ranged burst damage, AE and CC but solo carries have a large advantage. Mages only seem to solo when they are massively fed. Carries can solo when they're negative. I notice that late game melee groups sometimes do better as they can push towers x2-3 times quicker than magic users.

The result seems to be that magic users rarely solo, whereas carries can. The ability to solo is actually a massive advantage. Being able to jungle with confidence or push multiple towers are nice tactical choices. Sometimes you group, sometimes you push seperate targets. Carries get choices, casters often have to group for safety.
Agree with all of this.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

01-16-2010

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Originally Posted by GordonS1014 View Post
most important thing said all post ^

and dont dare say lichbane
lich bane DOES work... and AP is factored into tower damage


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Szass Tam

Junior Member

01-16-2010

I think that the biggest problem that mages face is the lack of variety on the item bonuses that actually apply to them. Carries have a lot of option while spending their money:

-Attack damage (analogous to AP in the case of a mage)
-Attack speed (comparable to cooldown reduction in the case of a mage)
-Cooldown reduction (which applies to carries and mages in a similar fashion)
-Critical chance/damage (mages have no analog to this, unless somehow in the future this would be implemented to magic damage leading to funny situations (veigar's primordial blast crit, for example)
-Armor penetration (spell penetration for the mages)
-Lifesteal (same as crit chance, magic lifesteal doesn't exist. Having the mages be able to buy some sort of magical lifesteal would certainly improve their survivability and would allow them the same jungling capabilities that physical champs have)

Additionaly, the fact that only physical damage leads to quick tower destruction the mages have a really hard time pushing lanes. Too many times i've played with a mage on a pub game where the people who is supposed to be bringing towers down and trying to win the game fail and i'm totally incapable of pushing a lane effectively. Lich bane helps a bit on this, but its a REALLY expensive item that isn't an automatic buy for most AP heroes. I guess you could adapt to the game you're playing, but on mages that can't effectively spam spells to make the most of the lich procs it really doesn't take a tower down that quickly (unless you have stacked ridiculous amounts of AP).

Nonetheless, seeing the game as a confrontation between carries and mages is just wrong. While I think that a team of carries would win against a team of mages, it is only because the carries WOULD be able to destroy towers and inhibs quicker than the mages. The thing is, LoL is game of TEAMWORK. Having mages AND carries (and tanks as well, don't forget those nice tanks that make us squishy-carries-and-mages rack up the kills) in a balanced fashion is what wins the games. A team of 5 physical carries would be steamrolled by a smart balanced team who just buys warden mails and thornmails.

To wrap it up, its true that physical carries have the upper hand while comparing them to mages, BUT the game as a whole is not unbalanced. Giving the mages another way to destroy towers wouldn't hurt, though.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-16-2010

Quote:
The result seems to be that magic users rarely solo, whereas carries can. The ability to solo is actually a massive advantage. Being able to jungle with confidence or push multiple towers are nice tactical choices. Sometimes you group, sometimes you push seperate targets. Carries get choices, casters often have to group for safety.
Solo carry means you're going to run in alone against 2-3 of the enemy = you die = next team fight is 4v5 with your team not having a carry. Good job trying to solo.

I'm still not convinced that casters suck in this game in any way. Annie, Anivia, Fiddlesticks, TF, and Gangplank are all casters, and almost all of them are undisputedly high tier. Annie and TF are listed as top tier by some. They're not going to wipe the other team in a team fight in an hour long game, but they still play a significant role and none of them are absolutely worthless at that point.

The only point I agree on is that casters suck at killing buildings. On the flipside, though, casters tend to be better minion killers at all points of the game.


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Zeta

Senior Member

01-16-2010

Quote:
-Critical chance/damage (mages have no analog to this, unless somehow in the future this would be implemented to magic damage leading to funny situations (veigar's primordial blast crit, for example)
-Armor penetration (spell penetration for the mages)
-Lifesteal (same as crit chance, magic lifesteal doesn't exist. Having the mages be able to buy some sort of magical lifesteal would certainly improve their survivability and would allow them the same jungling capabilities that physical champs have)
Allowing spells to damage towers, allowing abilities to crit, and putting an item that causes spells to lifesteal would balance things back out, I agree.
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Annie, Anivia, Fiddlesticks, TF, and Gangplank are all casters, and almost all of them are undisputedly high tier
Twisted Fate and Gangplank are both DPS.