The problem with "Carries".

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenova View Post
Compared to the farmed up carry who chops them up in 3 seconds flat? Yes they suck.
If someone is that farmed, then the game has gone way too long, you haven't gotten appropriate gear, or he has like no defensive gear. Casters bring certain things to a team that are really useful for killing low hp champions with no defensive gear...

Well, unless those carries are Twitch or Udyr, but yeah.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xenova

Member

01-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
If someone is that farmed, then the game has gone way too long, you haven't gotten appropriate gear, or he has like no defensive gear. Casters bring certain things to a team that are really useful for killing low hp champions with no defensive gear...

Well, unless those carries are Twitch or Udyr, but yeah.
My Dr. Mundo crits for 400+ with just boots and bloodrazor.

And he's a ****ty fighter, imagine what real fighters do.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WhitemageofDOOM

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenova View Post
The lack of stats in this game means ANYONE can get ANY items and completely wreck face, the exception being casters.
The fact characters can be used with multiple item builds is a good thing. It means you can have characters like cho'gath who can be built in more than one way, which makes it easier for you to adapt your gameplan based on team comps.

And stats are created the whole drat carry issue in the first place.(since agility offers exponentiol benefit vs. the linear benefits of strengh and intellect.)

-----------------------

You wanna argue that carries are too good in this game? i'd probably agree, buff AP and tone down the melee items.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Do I need to show you the kind of damage Annie can do in a set also with the same amount of gold?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xenova

Member

01-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
Do I need to show you the kind of damage Annie can do in a set also with the same amount of gold?
You know Poppy can just Ulti you and kill you and you won't be able to do **** about it?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Carries are best at mid game, not late game.

This is the time frame of when people have gotten their first major damage items, and second rank ultimate, but before they have started to take their survivability items. Mid game is where carries get the bulk of their kills, which puts them ahead in items and levels, allowing them to achieve their 15k+ gold builds.

Mid game is when a carry heavy team wins, or when that team loses. This happens because if they are not able to get many kills and push now, the other team will be on par in item progression and be on par in levels through out the game.

Late game, without a large mid game kill difference occuring, between a Carry heavy or Tank/Mage heavy team will be systematic killing of the Carries by crowd control and burst damage they cannot life steal past.

One large problem people have, are they only associate their losses with the person who had the kills. Not the support or tank who applied the crowd control giving them those kills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenova View Post
The lack of stats in this game means ANYONE can get ANY items and completely wreck face, the exception being casters.\.
You mean other than attack speed, attack damage, crit rate, move speed, armor, magic resist, health, mana, health regen, mana regen, right?

Those first three play a significant role in how damaging a champion is in being a carry at the least, the rest determine how effective they actually can be against more than bot level opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
Are the mages really THAT weak later game though? Annie, Anivia, Fiddle, Katarina, Gangplank, Karthus, Nunu, and TF are all casters that don't really the "okay then sucks" thing, unless we're talking about a game that goes on for like an hour.
They aren't that weak at any point in the game, they are just vulnerable to carries till late game, when their CC and burst potential can be paired with some survivability.

Both mages and carries start out as "ok" but the mages don't become devastating till late game, where as carries shine at mid game then fall off comparatively. (non fed or uncontested farming scenario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenova View Post
My Dr. Mundo crits for 400+ with just boots and bloodrazor.

And he's a ****ty fighter, imagine what real fighters do.
No. Mundo is a carry. One that is actually good at all levels of play and all phases of the game due to his abilities.

He is probably a good bit too strong with no point in the game where he is only "ok", he can be a monster from level 1 on. But most people just don't play him effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenova View Post
You know Poppy can just Ulti you and kill you and you won't be able to do **** about it?
That would be a fatal mistake for Poppy given almost any other choice of target.
____


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeta

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Quote:
One large problem people have, are they only associate their losses with the person who had the kills. Not the support or tank who applied the crowd control giving them those kills.
A carry can still get those kills without CC. It's just slightly harder.

Does CC contribute to fights? Yes, but usually only because it makes targets easier for carries to catch.

Either way, burst DPS dominates the game, as it either revolves around carries, or assisting carries.
Quote:
They aren't that weak at any point in the game, they are just vulnerable to carries till late game, when their CC and burst potential can be paired with some survivability.
A mage team wouldn't make it to late game against a team of carries. A carry team can finish a game by the 15-25 minute mark.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
A carry can still get those kills without CC. It's just slightly harder.

Does CC contribute to fights? Yes, but usually only because it makes targets easier for carries to catch.
Yes, they can get that kill against a single target, but they aren't going to against multiple targets. Especially against anyone with crowd control themselves, crowd control works both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
Either way, burst DPS dominates the game, as it either revolves around carries, or assisting carries.
You can insert Mage wherever you have Carry, they fill the role of burst the same way. Carries are better earlier, Mages are better late currently.

Burst, Crowd Control and Mobility are the entirety of the current meta-game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
A mage team wouldn't make it to late game against a team of carries. A carry team can finish a game by the 15-25 minute mark.
Which means the carries rolled the mages mid game, like I said above, which would happen in a couple of the few likely scenarios possible in that match up, which would fall on the mages not playing appropriately.
____


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xenova

Member

01-15-2010

@Echo7

Mundo is a terrible carry and a terrible tank, because he relies on one thing to seperate him from the others. REGENERATION.

But because this game is so ****ing imbalanced he cant rely on that because of bull**** like a 1350gold weapon called exectioner's calling which should be flat out removed from the game.

His ulti can't out regen any focus fire on him even as a tank build let alone a carry build.

He's only good when everyone completely ignores him, or hes good for ganking half hp heroes that dont have a tower to run to.

For the record i love Dr. Mundo, but my god is the game biased against him, being a regen reliant "fighter" who damages himself to do anything.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

01-15-2010

Like I said, most don't play him effectively. If you're honestly saying regeneration is his strong point, you are definitely on the far end from playing him well, or even having seen him played well.