[BUFF] Rammus [Warning : Long post]

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08-13-2009

Rammus is fantastic as-is.


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Lollerman

Senior Member

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowerOfOdin View Post
Return damage is reduced before when it is reflected, therefore, even melee DPS could still kill him. Also keep in mind that the current damage is almost not recognizable.
Rammus generally has a lot more HP than your regular DPS champion, and as klorinated mentioned before me (darn I neglected this too) when paired with his passive, Rammus is going to be dealing a lot more damage to you than you to him. Especially because damage is reduced before returned, Rammus would be impossible to kill simply because he only needs HP to be effective, where as the stronger a DPS champ gets, the more damage they take (think of a DPS with an Infinity Edge, but no HP/Mres items; that's gotta hurt)

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I see your point, but I would not say that this is a bad thing. A lot of heroes have more than one build and there are quite a few heroes where you can either go for phyiscal damage or AP - Jax is a good example here! You decide whether you want him to be a burst damage dealer or a dps hero. Encouraging more builds allows you to have a more flexible hero, the more diversity, the better a hero is. Concerning the buff, +1 AP = +1 returned damage.
I concede and agree, but my point was that the number seem a little off... the AP build being suggested (with these specific numbers that you've proposed) seem pretty darn good; so good, in fact, that I don't see why anybody would ever play regular tank Rammus again. If something becomes so good that it's taken over another all the time, it sort of becomes broke. Also, re: 1AP = 1damage (don't know why I didn't translate it like this sooner) DAMN SON, that's some EPIC SCALING. 100AP = 100 damage? Who'd want to hit Rammus now? But also worth noting: his Defense Curl currently has some insane def/res boosts, this skill would become broken as all hell if it scaled like this AND taunt became AoE. Actually, it'll be pretty bad for that one champion who gets taunted.

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Have a look at Axe in DotA. Axe is a melee tank hero with the same role as Rammus and he has a passive + damage skill that procs on attack and a AoE skill. I know that you cannot really compare them, but it's interesting to see anyway. Remember that I suggested to reduce the AoE. If your enemies decide to bunch together with 5 people, all in one small place, they deserve being killed or heavily hurt.
The analogy is broken when you remember Axe doesn't get some sort of super armour/resistance boost when he taunts his enemies. Rammus does, and his Defense Curl also guarantees return damage, where as Axe relies on luck. Axe is pretty balanced in that sense.

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I did not think of the building part, thanks for bringing that up! Seeing that there could be problems, I'd say that the ultimate will then deal -50% damage to buildings. I will add this in the OP.
Hmmmmm making it deal less damage to buildings while scale more with AP could be a very valid change! Rammus can sort of rax too easily as it is now (and why does Rammus alone have an ult that can damage buildings? Every other champion has to physically hit the bloody thing...) Valid suggestion!

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The slow's purpose is not only to ensure that the enemies take damage, it also ensures that you fulfill your tank role - you initiate and take the hits while you weaken all nearby enemies and help your team.
Well Powerball already provides a slow, and it's a great opener too. I don't think ult requires a slow, but I do think it needs to "update" more readily so it doesn't lag behind Rammus (or, as TwoFatNuts said, make it pulse around him, or just rework the mechanics behind the ult to make it more feasible... side note, however, it's fun to escape using the ult)

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Hey, that's my point! As stated above, diversity among a single hero is what makes him interesting.

And at a general remark, you guys got me wrong

I do not want to get all the changes, they are possible solutions and the devs should choose which one to pick (or even all ).
Well yeah, AP Rammus would be fun... need to rework these numbers considerably though (but the ult doing less damage to buildings while scaling more with AP - AFAI can tell - doesn't pose too much of a balance issue)

Edit: I suggest you change your thread title to [Rework] rather than [Buff] to avoid intimidating people into thinking you actually want to make Rammus even more powerful =P


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FellowerOfOdin

Member

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lollerman View Post
Rammus generally has a lot more HP than your regular DPS champion
Tristana?

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I concede and agree, but my point was that the number seem a little off... the AP build being suggested (with these specific numbers that you've proposed) seem pretty darn good; so good, in fact, that I don't see why anybody would ever play regular tank Rammus again. If something becomes so good that it's taken over another all the time, it sort of becomes broke. Also, re: 1AP = 1damage (don't know why I didn't translate it like this sooner) DAMN SON, that's some EPIC SCALING. 100AP = 100 damage? Who'd want to hit Rammus now?
The buff lasts for only 6 seconds and if you feel like manically attacking a walking armor, go ahead

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The analogy is broken when you remember Axe doesn't get some sort of super armour/resistance boost when he taunts his enemies.
He gets +20 armor during Berserker's Call.

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Rammus does, and his Defense Curl also guarantees return damage, where as Axe relies on luck. Axe is pretty balanced in that sense.
Axe may rely on luck, but his returned damage is a whole lot higher, thus making him a lot more dangerous.

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Hmmmmm making it deal less damage to buildings while scale more with AP could be a very valid change! Rammus can sort of rax too easily as it is now (and why does Rammus alone have an ult that can damage buildings? Every other champion has to physically hit the bloody thing...) Valid suggestion!
Yeah, agreed here too. Backdoor is annoying enough.

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Well yeah, AP Rammus would be fun... need to rework these numbers considerably though (but the ult doing less damage to buildings while scaling more with AP - AFAI can tell - doesn't pose too much of a balance issue)
Yeah, numbers need to be tweaked and will be tweaked, concept counts :O

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Edit: I suggest you change your thread title to [Rework] rather than [Buff] to avoid intimidating people into thinking you actually want to make Rammus even more powerful =P
Haha, I totally did this. Thanks

/e: I can't, damn it.


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The Senate

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Senior Member

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowerOfOdin View Post
Defensive Ball Curl deals 0 damage
Defensive Ball Curl stacks with his passive. I always saw it as a defensive and offensive buff, especially late game when you can get your armor to like 500 with it. That's a 125 attack buff right there! Combo all your skills one after another and Rammus can be a total beast.

You bring up some good points, but I need to be honest.

I've never felt weak or underpowered with Rammus, and I'm sure other people agree with me. If you want to give a tank love, give it to Cho'Gath.


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klorinator

Adjudicator

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowerOfOdin View Post
I did not forget this
This is a terrible idea. By massing armor, you will increase your resistance to physical attacks and your damage, but there are a few problems.

a) You are very vulnerable to Magic Damage because you have lots of armor but lack of hitpoints.

b) You only get 25% of your armor's damage, that's quite ok, butyou will have to pay a lot of gold to get a significant damage bonus.

c) You will have mana problems due to Rammus' low manapool / manareg.


d) Armor is balanced with diminishing returns, meaning that the higher your % is, the more armor you have to get tofurther increase it, making mass armor an incredibly expensive build.

I would rather suggest going for hitpoints and then for armor, but then again, this heavily depends on the enemy lineup. If you face 3+ phyiscal damage dealers, you will focus on armor.
I start with doran's shield then I grab ninja tabi, 3rd I usually go for guardian angel. After this it's quite situational if the opposing team is dps heavy I might make a thornmail or maybe a warden's, if they have lots of magic and aoe I'll grab an Aegis, if I am having mana problems Ill get myself a glacial shroud to eventually make into a frozen heart.(or Ill get the golem buff... mana problem solved for a while)

The vulnerability to magic is easily handled by curl and the GA if these items are not enough to handle it, the aegis adds hp AND spell resistance + armor in the form of an aura for your team.

If you have GA, Tabi, Doran's, Frozen heart... that over 200 armor and when you pop curl you will have over 100 bonus damage from your passive. I think that is significant.


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Lollerman

Senior Member

08-13-2009

Yeah, I think we've established thus far that regular tank Rammus does significant amounts of damage.

The merits behind this thread, however, is to introduce AP Rammus, which isn't viable at all considering the horrible AP scaling of his skills.

We're looking to tweak his skills around so that a bursty AP build could be considered rather than a head-on tank/DoT build (I'd say DPS, but how PS is it really when you need to whittle down their HP slowly as a tank?)


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FellowerOfOdin

Member

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by klorinator View Post
If you have GA, Tabi, Doran's, Frozen heart... that over 200 armor and when you pop curl you will have over 100 bonus damage from your passive. I think that is significant.
100 bonus damage that is reduced by the enemy armor as well and in the end, it will be about 50 or less. Furthermore, you spent a whole lot of gold on this build.


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TiberiusAudley

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Adjudicator

08-13-2009

The only thing in your post I agree with is halving the damage his ultimate does to buildings.


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klorinator

Adjudicator

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowerOfOdin View Post
100 bonus damage that is reduced by the enemy armor as well and in the end, it will be about 50 or less. Furthermore, you spent a whole lot of gold on this build.
That's true but I never feel useless... Doran's, Tabi and GA should easily be obtainable in just about every game and those are the basis of my build. Maybe you should find a champion that already fits your playstyle instead of lobbying for changes on a champion that in my opinion is excellent.


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Logo

Senior Member

08-13-2009

Taunt is easy to land once you realize it's limitations (which should still be fixed/improved but it's entirely landable. It's also quite effective when you realize that it includes an armor debuff

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His Defense Curl currently allows him to boast one of the highest survivability early-mid game, and his Taunt is sufficient to disrupt your enemies focus firing some of your major team assets (like the disabler, or the main DPS). His ultimate also allows Rammus to rax quickly early game. All in all, he seems fairly balanced.
This is spot on. The power of Rammus is in his incredible tanking and what that gives the team. He can rax/tower kills early, tank hard creeps (dragon and what not), or take massive punishment from the enemy. If the enemy ignores him powerball is quite powerful and can really be spammed. Between powerball + taunt Rammus can keep someone on him for a very long time. Plus the speed boost of Powerball makes him even harder to kill.

You really can't underestimate the building destruction of his ult. He's really best played like Rhasta who excels at taking down towers. Between your first 4-5 ults you should be getting all three front towers down. Generally when I play Rammus well I'll end up with 6-8 building kills.

Rammus is an initiator and tower killers who doesn't die. That's really more than enough for a single hero to be.