[BUFF] Rammus [Warning : Long post]

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FellowerOfOdin

Member

08-13-2009

What do you do when a hero looks awesome and fits perfectly to the game and his role but needs a huge buff because he is close to useless?

You write about Rammus, the underpowered tank.

I really like the hero...no. I really would like to love Rammus but in his current state, he is just unplayable and cannot fulfill the role he is suppused to fulfill, the role of a pickworthy tank.

First of all, the term "tank" comes from MMORPGs where a certain character class is capable of drawing aggro, which means that all NPC enemies attack this hero. Tanks have high hitpoints and a lot of defensive skills but a low offense. The low offense is justified because they can draw aggro and save the other players. Furthermore, tanks are allowed to wield the heaviest armor in the game to ensure that they take a beating and ask for more at the end.

Now back to LoL. Every life-threatening enemy (= enemy hero) is controlled by another player which means that you cannot draw aggro by normal attacks and that you have to rely on your abilities if you want to get attention - that's one reason less for a low offensive.

Secondly, in LoL, every hero can wield any weapon and carry any armor - that's normal and of course no flaw, but again, this is one reason less for a low offense.

"Hey!", might you ask now, "Why is he talking about offense all the time when we talk about tanks?" and I complety understand this question.

In LoL, where tanks cannot easily draw aggro and have to rely on their abilities, the lack of defensive and protective power should be compensated, no, it has to be compensated. In a game like LoL, each hero has to be able to be a threat to the enemy as well, otherwise, the enemies will not focus the tank but rather the weaker allies, why bother with something that is not threatening you at all?

Take Judicator as an example. She has awesome defensive abilites (a first class buff with a huge range and a shield that makes her invulnerable), but also a good offense due to a high damage nuke that also slows her enemies and an ultimate that increases her damage and her potential threat level in teamfights due to the temporarily aquired range.

Well, let's get to Rammus back - is anyone still reading?

Rammus defense is pretty good Why?

a) He has a strong defensive W skill that heavily increases his survivability in a teamfight.

b) He has a above-average HP gain, allowing him to take more damage.

c) He has a Taunt skill that allows him to truly be a tank and protect other teammembers.

"Hm, now where's the problem? He seems to be a good tank to me!"

That's what I thought too at start, but there are some flaws, some are easier to be found, some aren't. Let's have a look at them step-by-step.

a) Defensive Ball Curl deals 0 damage. As stated above, even tanks should be a threat to the enemy and the synergy looks awesome at first sight - use your Taunt skill to draw aggro and let the enemy hurt themselves. So far, so good, but then comes harsh reality. The initial damage is a joke already. The damage is reduced when it's thrown back at the enemy and all in all, it is way too low to be evenrecognized. Hm, that's not good, but why don't we get AP to increase the damage? That's what I thought at least - and I was heavily disappointed. Defensive Ball Curl has a AP ratio of 0.33 (not 100% sure, correct me if I am wrong please) and I was really upset when seeing this. 0.33 is close to nothing and together with the fact that you already have a non-recognizable damage output, this either is a bug or something that badly needs a fix - but we will get to the solutions later on.

b) Taunt is limited to a single target only - again, why? Rammus is a good initiator and by crippling the taunt skill, you destroy any synergy. Taunt can easily be avoided because of its small range and it's hard to reach the enemy damage dealer in a teamfight. Yes, it is not a bad skill and I have saved quite a few teammates by taunting enemies, but limiting it to a single target seems to be completely unnecessary to me.

c) His ultimate is a good skill, similar to Sandking's Epicenter (DotA), but again, the damage is too low. It is good early on, when all enemies do not have their HP items, but as soon as it comes to midgame, the damage is not high enough to actually be a threat. Furthermore, the ultimate is inaccurate. When you move forwards during your ultimate, the shockwaves will always stay behind, chasing an enemy with the ultimate is not possible unless you started in melee range. And once again, buffing the ultimate is near impossible because of a 0.33 AP ratio.

His Q skill is perfectly fine by the way.

Now, on to the solutions. All of the below mentioned solutions are possible solutions that I thought of. I do not want to introduce ALL changes at once!

a.1) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's initial damage by 50%
a.2) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's AP ratio to 1:1

b.1) Reduce Taunt's range, increase its manacost and make it AoE instead

c.1) Increase the ultimate's AP ratio to 0.66
c.2) Increase the ultimate's initial damage by 25-30% but reduce the damage it deals to buildings by 50%
c.3) Introduce a channeling time of 1.5-2.0 seconds before the ultimate starts but add a slow that gives all enemies in range a debuff with -20-40% movement speed

Well guys, that was long post and everyone that read through the whole post gets a cookie and a hug. I am looking forward to your feedback, thoughts, anything

So far,

Fellower of Odin


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TwoFatNuts

Adjudicator

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowerOfOdin View Post
a.1) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's initial damage by 50%
a.2) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's AP ratio to 1:1

b.1) Reduce Taunt's range, increase its manacost and make it AoE instead

c.1) Increase the ultimate's AP ratio to 0.66
c.2) Increase the ultimate's initial damage by 25-30%
c.3) Introduce a channeling time of 1.5-2.0 seconds before the ultimate starts but add a slow that gives all enemies in range a debuff with -20-40% movement speed
A - Yerrs! His dmg reflection is pathetic, why even have it calculated at this point.

B - No :< This would prob make him a lil op. Aoe taunt is harrrd to balance.

C - Meh :/ Could just make it actually pulse around him instead of behind him...and i hate the pre-cast channels....yeah im talkin to you sticks. Not to mention another aoe spell that slows...yikes! With all of those together he could zip in, taunt everyone and then drop his ult slowing them too! PAIN! We would be seeing 2 Rammus in every game then :<

I love rammus personally, maybe my fav tank (sion is close). And I agree he could use a lil buff'n but I really dont wanna make him op. He has good spells they just need a slight tweek, but this is deff on the right track


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Omnipotent

Member

08-13-2009

I can see your points in most of this thread, but an AE taunt with a badass Ultimate that you are asking for it to be buffed plus AP playing a bigger role in it in terms of ration to dmg, mind you the radiance that you will be making for Rummus... Lets look at it, shall we?

If say your AP is 150. So added value onto his ultimate is 99.

Therefore, at level 1, Mr. Rummus will be dealing 68dmg+99dmg=167DMG per pulse for 7 seconds, total value for 1169 DMG.

I might be wrong with the 68 DMG, but if memory serves me right, lvl 1 tremor does 68 dmg per pulse.. more AP ratio on that as you stated will push numbers this high. Plus the Curle, Plus the taunt, its all over, anyone toe to toe with Rummus is dead... Also slow on the Tremor effect and it his structures also Odin Follower, that would be insane.

About the taunt, AE taunt would be a sweet idea... But consider this scenario, Rummus with AP400, at lvl 18, runs in between 5 heroes, tauns perfectly (they attack you for 2seconds) and you execute your ulti (2 sec channeling for example). You are telling me these people have a 0.5 sec to interrupt the ulti or it could mean a team wipe, by Rummus alone. We are ignoring his other mates who could have AE stun and what not.

Anyhow, this used to happen in DoTA, so I don't mind seeing it here at all, a complete team wipe due to perfect timing and uber team synchronisation between team members .

Just my input and I liked reading your post, I like your style of writing..


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IS1b2fae32403405

Senior Member

08-13-2009

tldr, sorry. But rammus is OP and needs a nerf before taunt gets fixed, imo.


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

08-13-2009

My post on Rammus's taunt as an AoE http://beta.leagueoflegends.com/boar...ead.php?t=2418


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Lollerman

Senior Member

08-13-2009

Wow, slow down there:

a.1) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's initial damage by 50%

You mean 50% return damage? If so, then a simple Thornmail (at 1600 a pop) would increase this to a flat rate of 70% damage return... making Rammus neigh impossible to kill by DPS champs.

a.2) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's AP ratio to 1:1

This would encourage AP builds rather than tank builds, so it doesn't fix his problem of being an underpowered tank, it fixes him into becoming some unique weird caster type thing champion who stacks AP and abuses return damage. And how exactly does AP buff the skill? 1AP = 1% returned damage?


b.1) Reduce Taunt's range, increase its manacost and make it AoE instead

Even with Rammus's current Defense Curl, having five champions attacking Rammus isn't that big a deal; in fact, it kind of hurts if Rammus bought a Thornsmail. If you made it AoE, it'll effectively be a AoE disable... that's kind of off balance, considering you'll be capable of incapacitating an entire team all by yourself.

c.1) Increase the ultimate's AP ratio to 0.66

His ultimate can hit buildings. Making it such a high AP scaling would mean stacking an AP build would completely destroy towers/inhibitors. Not to mention Rammus is already one of the most prominant BD/early push champs around.

c.2) Increase the ultimate's initial damage by 25-30%

Same problem as stated above.

c.3) Introduce a channeling time of 1.5-2.0 seconds before the ultimate starts but add a slow that gives all enemies in range a debuff with -20-40% movement speed

To ensure that the ultimate hits? I don't mind this suggestion so much... the channelling would compel champs with disables to waste it on Rammus, effectively filling his "tank" role... I'm not sure how I feel about this change though, channelling just doesn't seem to fit with tank/physical melee characters who need to move around more often.


End note: Rammus is a devastating champion in capable hands. His Defense Curl currently allows him to boast one of the highest survivability early-mid game, and his Taunt is sufficient to disrupt your enemies focus firing some of your major team assets (like the disabler, or the main DPS). His ultimate also allows Rammus to rax quickly early game. All in all, he seems fairly balanced. It would be interesting to see Rammus being built alternatively - his skills basically scream "IMA TANK RAWWWWWWR" - suggestions such as making his skills scale with AP certainly seems interesting; a caster Rammus would be most entertaining (just roll in, spam shield and taunt, force them to hit you and they get damaged themselves... great fun), and maybe if you left out buffing ult (as mentioned previously, abusable for early tower kills by stacking AP, or even backdooring) an AP Rammus could be feasible... my gripe is that it doesn't actually make him any more/less effective than he already is (since his ult is already well balanced; you don't want him to be any stronger than he is now, or towers will drop like flies, but you can't make it any weaker either, or it'll basically useless)

Maybe make the damage interval register more quickly for his ult, much like SK's Epicentre back in Dota, so that his ult would be more effective when chasing enemy champs.


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klorinator

Adjudicator

08-13-2009

I see that you neglected to mention his passive which is amazing... Curl offers Armor, Spell dmg reduction and physical dmg return, so not only is it a dual defensive buff but when used in combination with taunt and his passive it becomes a dual offensive buff as well. I can't understand why you would think this needs to be stronger. Take this into consideration... if you taunt +curl your opponent will deal you significantly less dmg while they receive dmg return AND they will have less armor so when you hit them with your now buffed atk dmg (via the passive) they get hit even harder. Do I even have to mention that you can initiate this with power ball and hit them a few times while they are slowed prior to your taunt? Oh yeah don't forget that you will probably have your ult going the whole time...

I don't know what you do with rammus but can I suggest making armor? Lots and Lots of armor.


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FellowerOfOdin

Member

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lollerman View Post
Wow, slow down there:

a.1) Buff Defensive Ball Curl's initial damage by 50%

You mean 50% return damage? If so, then a simple Thornmail (at 1600 a pop) would increase this to a flat rate of 70% damage return... making Rammus neigh impossible to kill by DPS champs.
Return damage is reduced before when it is reflected, therefore, even melee DPS could still kill him. Also keep in mind that the current damage is almost not recognizable.

Quote:
This would encourage AP builds rather than tank builds, so it doesn't fix his problem of being an underpowered tank, it fixes him into becoming some unique weird caster type thing champion who stacks AP and abuses return damage. And how exactly does AP buff the skill? 1AP = 1% returned damage?
I see your point, but I would not say that this is a bad thing. A lot of heroes have more than one build and there are quite a few heroes where you can either go for phyiscal damage or AP - Jax is a good example here! You decide whether you want him to be a burst damage dealer or a dps hero. Encouraging more builds allows you to have a more flexible hero, the more diversity, the better a hero is. Concerning the buff, +1 AP = +1 returned damage.

Quote:
b.1) Reduce Taunt's range, increase its manacost and make it AoE instead

Even with Rammus's current Defense Curl, having five champions attacking Rammus isn't that big a deal; in fact, it kind of hurts if Rammus bought a Thornsmail. If you made it AoE, it'll effectively be a AoE disable... that's kind of off balance, considering you'll be capable of incapacitating an entire team all by yourself.
Have a look at Axe in DotA. Axe is a melee tank hero with the same role as Rammus and he has a passive + damage skill that procs on attack and a AoE skill. I know that you cannot really compare them, but it's interesting to see anyway. Remember that I suggested to reduce the AoE. If your enemies decide to bunch together with 5 people, all in one small place, they deserve being killed or heavily hurt.

Quote:
c.1) Increase the ultimate's AP ratio to 0.66

[/B]His ultimate can hit buildings. Making it such a high AP scaling would mean stacking an AP build would completely destroy towers/inhibitors. Not to mention Rammus is already one of the most prominant BD/early push champs around.
I did not think of the building part, thanks for bringing that up! Seeing that there could be problems, I'd say that the ultimate will then deal -50% damage to buildings. I will add this in the OP.

Quote:
To ensure that the ultimate hits? I don't mind this suggestion so much... the channelling would compel champs with disables to waste it on Rammus, effectively filling his "tank" role... I'm not sure how I feel about this change though, channelling just doesn't seem to fit with tank/physical melee characters who need to move around more often.
The slow's purpose is not only to ensure that the enemies take damage, it also ensures that you fulfill your tank role - you initiate and take the hits while you weaken all nearby enemies and help your team.

Quote:
IMA TANK RAWWWWWWR" - suggestions such as making his skills scale with AP certainly seems interesting; a caster Rammus would be most entertaining (just roll in, spam shield and taunt, force them to hit you and they get damaged themselves... great fun), and maybe if you left out buffing ult (as mentioned previously, abusable for early tower kills by stacking AP, or even backdooring) an AP Rammus could be feasible...
Hey, that's my point! As stated above, diversity among a single hero is what makes him interesting.

And at a general remark, you guys got me wrong

I do not want to get all the changes, they are possible solutions and the devs should choose which one to pick (or even all ).


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JRothLegacy

Member

08-13-2009

Rammus is a great champion as he is. Just mass armor and health and your fine. Ive seen PLENTY of Rammus players carry an entire team to victory. Many many many times.


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FellowerOfOdin

Member

08-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by klorinator View Post
Take this into consideration... if you taunt +curl your opponent will deal you significantly less dmg while they receive dmg return AND they will have less armor so when you hit them with your now buffed atk dmg (via the passive) they get hit even harder.
I did not forget this

As stated above, the returned damage is too small to actually have an impact and can be left out completely, especially because it procs for about 2-3 times (in the 3 seconds Taunt). Secondly, Rammus has a very low attackspeed and a long attack animation, making him less of a offensive attacker and making his passive look weak. His passive should rather give him an armor or HP bonus instead of a damage bonus.

Quote:
I don't know what you do with rammus but can I suggest making armor? Lots and Lots of armor.
This is a terrible idea. By massing armor, you will increase your resistance to physical attacks and your damage, but there are a few problems.

a) You are very vulnerable to Magic Damage because you have lots of armor but lack of hitpoints.

b) You only get 25% of your armor's damage, that's quite ok, butyou will have to pay a lot of gold to get a significant damage bonus.

c) You will have mana problems due to Rammus' low manapool / manareg.


d) Armor is balanced with diminishing returns, meaning that the higher your % is, the more armor you have to get tofurther increase it, making mass armor an incredibly expensive build.

I would rather suggest going for hitpoints and then for armor, but then again, this heavily depends on the enemy lineup. If you face 3+ phyiscal damage dealers, you will focus on armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morto View Post
tldr, sorry. But rammus is OP and needs a nerf before taunt gets fixed, imo.
You don't read, you don't post, thanks for your 100% negligible comment.