(Guide) An intricate guide to going mid as Warwick

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Alyzar

Senior Member

03-01-2011

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Originally Posted by Seanner View Post
Having played against this myself as a few different champs, I can say some effective counters:
Don't use the term 'counters' in games like League of legends. It makes you seem naive.

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1. anything that keeps you in the lane against him (regen, lifesteal, spell vamp, etc.) His actual pushing ability and tower defense is terrible.
He actually has amazing team wide pushing tower. At level 6, him, and another auto attacker can take a tower from full to nothing in one creep wave. I've done it before. You obviously aren't experienced with WW if you think that he lacks pushing power. It's actually one of his strengths. If you were experienced with midding as Warwick, you would understand that he's a farm oriented middle. You can get regen and lifesteal all you want. Have fun being unable to harrass my free farm.

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If the game was entirely 1v1 with each player trying to out-tank the other, the non-WW will be able to down towers vs him.
1.) This is a team game. If you push my tower super hard early on, you're going to get ganked.

2.) Even if it is 1v1, you're argument doesn't hold value and you're either underestimating WW, or you haven't played against one that knows what he is doing.

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His effectiveness is because he punishes you in small bites now and then that you typically haven't prepared for, until you have to leave the lane. But if you ARE prepared for it, he's in a sense just a big minion that you aggro all the time
If you consider high end base attack damage and a 245 damage nuke that also heals him for an equal amount small bites, then alright. You're obviously missing the point of WW. The idea isn't that he does MASSIVE amounts of damage, it's that he does high end damage whilst taking little to no damage himself. He's a big minion that will zone you out of his lane very easily. If by small bite, you mean taking 1/4 of Ashe's HP with my q+1 auto attack, then sure, it's a small bite.

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2. executioner's...keeps HIM out of the lane...the cooldown on that item is extremely short
There are many things wrong with this argument. You use an item that's somewhat expensive early on to justify "countering" someone in the LANING phase. You could argue that you start out with a Vampiric Scepter, in which case I outlane you early on due to the fact that you a.) Can't damage me at all, b.) can't out last me because I'm not letting you get near the creeps. You could argue that you get brawler's glove first, in which case I do the same thing I do when you get Vampiric Scepter.

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3. wit's end...WW is hugely mana dependent to get his lifestealing super-attack, and the MR counters his abilities...these two items alone are huge
Another item that is expensive and you can't use to counter him in the laning phase. You're also forgetting the fact that his attack damage isn't minuscule at all, and that his ult does physical damage.

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4. chalice...mana champs may well need the mana in the annoying attrition battle, and you get even more MR
I build magic pen for a reason. Also, like I said, AD.
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5. insert ultra-carry item here for ADs (bloodthirster, etc.) and win the game with a single boomerang
Alright?

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Here's an example build as Vlad, maxing W for tower defense and health regen:

regrowth -> treads -> visage -> revolver -> QSS -> WotA -> deathcap -> sell regrowth -> get whatever as 6th item, and in an actual 1v1 you could get executioner's or wit's end to actually try to kill him, but this build will make you last forever while at the end giving you enough power to straight push and kill things with reasonable AP
How does going Regrowth pendent 'counter' warwick and stop him from free farming?


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basically just follow the recommended build as it has chalice and starks built in, the MR, lifesteal and regen you want. Don't throw boomerangs or ricochets, you can't kill him and you need the minions to lifesteal, but then he can't kill you either. Pick up wit's end and executioner's and now he's in trouble. Finally, in end game you will have a full bloodthirster and can one-shot a whole wave for the winning push
How does this counter Warwick and stop him from free farming ?


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Zagurim

Junior Member

03-01-2011

I have to be missing something, Alyzar if you could point out what I am missing it would be appreciated.

I am counting up only 75 AP in the entire build from:

15 AP - Doran's Ring
25 AP - Malady
9 AP - Glyphs (1 AP per)
11 AP - Seals & Marks (.6 AP per)
15 AP - Quints
----------------------
75 AP (rounding up rune fractions)

I think you state in your guide you get 110. Where is the other 35 AP coming from?

That being said I prefer the traditional builds but I see the arguement for both sides:

Q damage is the max of:

75/125/175/225/275 +1 per AP or 8/11/14/17/20% of max health

At level 1 I would guestimate the average champ has 500-600 hit points. Assuming 550 is the average at level 1 (both levels and Q level) would mean the greater of 75+AP or 8% of 550 = 44. With the starting AP of 50 (my numbers not yours) that means your Q does 125 damage which is huge at level 1.

But I would say the average level 18 champ has probably 2.5K life. Assuming 2.5K health at 18 with Q maxed out the comparisons are 275+AP = 350 damage (my number not yours) or 20% of 2.5K = 500 damage.

The point is on average the early game AP advantage turns around and your AP points become worthless because you are always processing at the 20% health level. I think the real question is does the early game advantage allow you to get fed enough to compensate for the late game worthlessness of your AP. While that question is really unique to each game, you can get a hint at what point in the game the early game AP advantage flips to a disadvantage.

I would suggest that is around level 9. At that level my numbers (some swags) are:

- Q at Level 5 (priority maxing it)
- AP at full from feeding (so my 75)
- Average health at 1500 per champion

Q then processes either:

275+75 = 350 Damage

Or

20% of 1500 Health = 300 Damage

I call it even at that point because alternative runes could easily compensate for the 50 damage (for instance taking CDR grants you something like 14% additional Qing).

So with the breakeven at level 9 it seems to me you better dominate quickly as you spend a lot more time running around levels 10-18. In particular with the guide focusing on farming the initial levels (which I do agree with), it appears you are giving up too much later game power for early game power. Or at least I think it will be hard to get fed enough early to compensate.

Just my 2 cents. I am biased toward jungle WW, but I really do appreciate alternative builds. Even if I disagree with them (or in this case really the use of AP) they allow us to look at champions and abilities in a different way which hopefully makes our overall gameplay better.

Thanks for putting it together (and answering my AP count if you could)


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Seanner

Senior Member

03-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzar View Post
Don't use the term 'counters' in games like League of legends. It makes you seem naive.
I thought we were going to be civil. What word do I use to describe Galio vs. <random mage> or QSS vs. WW ult or cleanse vs. CC or ...

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He actually has amazing team wide pushing tower. At level 6, him, and another auto attacker can take a tower from full to nothing in one creep wave.
Ditto for say Sivir & someone else.

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I've done it before. You obviously aren't experienced with WW if you think that he lacks pushing power. It's actually one of his strengths.
He does high damage, but it's single target. ACTUAL pushers can do comparable tower damage but clear waves faster.

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If you were experienced with midding as Warwick, you would understand that he's a farm oriented middle. You can get regen and lifesteal all you want. Have fun being unable to harrass my free farm.
And what I'm saying is, you can build to play against that such that it's a draw. You can't harass my MR and lifesteal/vamp <random champ> either. It just becomes a farm-off. It's true that it's very difficult to stop WW by oneself, as he is pro 1v1. But you can build to prevent WW from stopping YOU. In the end, such a build still leaves you with superior pushing skills with any champ with AoE. E.g. someone like Sivir is going to be far more amazing with huge bloodthirster ricochets thrown from behind a tower acing your team compared to your 1.7 second removable (thus counterable) stun.

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1.) This is a team game. If you push my tower super hard early on, you're going to get ganked.
Vice versa? Who even said anything about a tower kill in 3 minutes? You brought it up when you said WW and an autoattacker could kill a tower quickly, apparently because I died middle for some reason. Well that's the main problem and has nothing to do with the fact that 2 people can kill a tower. What if you died to a gank instead?

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2.) Even if it is 1v1, you're argument doesn't hold value and you're either underestimating WW, or you haven't played against one that knows what he is doing.
I know full well that WW dominates nearly anyone who doesn't specfically build to not get out-laned by him...the thing is such a build can be split offensive/defensive such that in the process you gain the offensive upperhand eventually. If you play for maximum laning against WW so you don't lose your own tower, eventually you will arrive at an endgame build and then it's AP or AD carry vs. a QSS'd ult and -50% lifesteal = worthless.

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If you consider high end base attack damage and a 245 damage nuke that also heals him for an equal amount small bites, then alright.
Chalice + QSS + Visage/Wit's = not that much, and Visage + lifesteal/vamp = that "not that much" gets healed right back. It's possible to negate Warwick's harass is part of my thesis. If WW is no longer a threat, he just becomes a big minion.

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You're obviously missing the point of WW. The idea isn't that he does MASSIVE amounts of damage, it's that he does high end damage whilst taking little to no damage himself.
That's exactly what my "counter" build does too. It achieves parity with WW by doing the exact same thing. You minimize his damage while healing yourself, so both of you stay at full health the whole time. Wit's end though eventually threatens to end your lifesteal, executioner's halves whatever you do get, QSS negates your ult, and ALL 3 of those reduce the damage you do with Q. Parity with WW is endgame victory because ultimately the champ mid vs. him will have superior abilities.

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He's a big minion that will zone you out of his lane very easily. If by small bite, you mean taking 1/4 of Ashe's HP with my q+1 auto attack, then sure, it's a small bite.
If Ashe would stop rushing IE that wouldn't happen, please refer to previous section...

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There are many things wrong with this argument. You use an item that's somewhat expensive early on to justify "countering" someone in the LANING phase. You could argue that you start out with a Vampiric Scepter, in which case I outlane you early on due to the fact that you a.) Can't damage me at all, b.) can't out last me because I'm not letting you get near the creeps. You could argue that you get brawler's glove first, in which case I do the same thing I do when you get Vampiric Scepter.
First off, the items build up starting from cheaper ones like chalice, emblem, visage, etc.
Second, the laning phase can last indefinitely if everyone is invincible to each other, that just never happens in practice. One or the other side lanes might get messed up and then mid might get double/triple teamed for either side...but that's a team win/loss not a mid issue. Building so as to not die to WW is a perfectly reasonable objective, and ensures a draw in mid. What happens elsewhere is irrelevant, either player might end up taking additional pressure depending, but that doesn't affect who is better in mid. But so long as you don't LOSE mid to WW, you did your job and will eventually obtain enough items to become more useful overall.

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his ult does physical damage.
An amount that only matters if you didn't build as I suggested and are steadily losing health into kill range. It's hardly anything to worry someone at full health. Not to seem like I'm bashing your champ and say it's weak, but in the sense of pressing R ftw, it IS weak. Further, some champs have abilities to dodge it, and further, QSS makes it do roughly 0 damage (and further reduces Q).

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How does going Regrowth pendent 'counter' warwick and stop him from free farming?
It doesn't. It stops WW from stopping you from free farming in the beginning. My build aims to keep each player free farming. Eventually WW's lack of AoE and 100% counterable ult make him Big Minion.

I would seriously like to hear what you propose to do against the Vlad build especially. A high vamp Vlad is basically a mage WW if you compare Qs.

Visage gives MR, health which gives AP, CDR, and effectively is spell vamp. Revolver/WotA gives yet more spell vamp, and AP which is also health. QSS gives MR and kills your ult. You now have invinco-Vlad vs invinco-WW, but only one of them has crazy AoE damage. In fairness, Vlad has an issue against QSS himself, but his W and E are both AoE.

Maybe the WW's I've faced were terrible I don't know. We could always 1v1, and I mean that more in the "test" sense and less in the "taunt" sense. I have a feeling this argument will go nowhere, so it would be better to actually play each other and see what happens.


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Alyzar

Senior Member

03-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagurim View Post
I have to be missing something, Alyzar if you could point out what I am missing it would be appreciated.

I am counting up only 75 AP in the entire build from:

15 AP - Doran's Ring
25 AP - Malady
9 AP - Glyphs (1 AP per)
11 AP - Seals & Marks (.6 AP per)
15 AP - Quints
----------------------
75 AP (rounding up rune fractions)

I think you state in your guide you get 110. Where is the other 35 AP coming from?
Ah. My build used to have more AP, but I revised it a bit. Could you point out exactly where you saw that?




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But I would say the average level 18 champ has probably 2.5K life. Assuming 2.5K health at 18 with Q maxed out the comparisons are 275+AP = 350 damage (my number not yours) or 20% of 2.5K = 500 damage.

The point is on average the early game AP advantage turns around and your AP points become worthless because you are always processing at the 20% health level. I think the real question is does the early game advantage allow you to get fed enough to compensate for the late game worthlessness of your AP. While that question is really unique to each game, you can get a hint at what point in the game the early game AP advantage flips to a disadvantage.
It does diminish, but I wouldn't say it becomes worthless, per say. It helps in farming creeps for HP, doing baron, etc. That +75 has saved me from dying to towers, saved me from dying to players (Running past a creep and using my q on it before escaping because of that bonus 75 hp.)

To your question regarding whether or not the early game advantage is worth it, I'd say it depends on how good you did that game. It has the potential to be worth it. I won't bore you with the specifics, but on an average GOOD game, the Ashe that I'm against has 12 creep kills, 3 deaths against me, is 2-3 levels below me, and can't even get near the creeps without being worried about flash+exhaust+ult+q from me. The shaco that has tried to gank me constantly can't do it because I have a heal that is also a nuke that heals me for more damage then any heal on the field whilst doing more damage then any nuke on the field at that point in time (Plus exhaust and fash). If I manage to get ashe low enough to where I have blood scent on her, it becomes even more tricky for her to try and stay alive. I hit level 7 or so, farm up a malady, and gank someone.

This usually consists of me ulting in, Malady proccing to max before my ult even wears off, only to be stunned again (Assuming I have someone who is capable of that in the lane.) I exhaust, bringing their MR even lower, (Ontop of my manapen from offensive tree) causing my Q to take 1/4 of a squishie's health very easily. Flash and blood scent make it very difficult for them to escape.

It's a trade off, I suppose. It's risky, in a sense, but the sheer power of the early game AP is why I pick it. In LoL, characters are only capable of so much, and I try constantly to push those boundaries and make my characters as unstoppable as possible. Especially in the early game, where things snowball the easiest.


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I thought we were going to be civil. What word do I use to describe Galio vs. <random mage> or QSS vs. WW ult or cleanse vs. CC or ..
The term "Deal with" works way better over counter. Counter assumes you are completely shutting x character down, which 9/10 times you aren't.

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Ditto for say Sivir & someone else.
What does that have to do with anything?

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He does high damage, but it's single target. ACTUAL pushers can do comparable tower damage but clear waves faster.
Actual pushers can't do what Warwick does. See my guide, or maybe you should actually play the character before you judge him. I see lots of crappy sivirs every day. That doesn't mean I'm going to call sivir bad.

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And what I'm saying is, you can build to play against that such that it's a draw. You can't harass my MR and lifesteal/vamp <random champ> either.
Yes I can.


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But you can build to prevent WW from stopping YOU.
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In the end, such a build still leaves you with superior pushing skills with any champ with AoE. E.g. someone like Sivir is going to be far more amazing with huge bloodthirster ricochets thrown from behind a tower acing your team compared to your 1.7 second removable (thus counterable) stun.
I've never seen a sivir that has been the reason a team was aced. All I see from her is pushing towers and mediocre DPS, but alright. If you're trying to say sivir out carries Warwick.. Well, that's your opinion, but I'm not sure I agree with it.


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Zagurim

Junior Member

03-02-2011

Check out the "Pregame" section for the reference to 110 AP.

Thanks for clarifying


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Alyzar

Senior Member

03-02-2011

Mmhm, and thanks for pointing out the mistake.


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Ventus72

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-05-2011

....mid ww......The worst idea since jungle heimer.


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Chillzilla

Senior Member

06-25-2013

the link no longer works for the guide, plz bring down