Sivir: Boomering or Ricochet?

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Sethala

Junior Member

01-14-2010

I want to thank you all for your comments. What I think I've decided to do for Sivir is Rico, BB, Shield, BB, Rico, Ult, then prioritize Ult > BB > Rico > Shield.

My thinking: For your first point, BB is fairly weak, and with limited mana regen, Rico is better. Second point, obviously, is BB. Third is shield, to activate all three skills, then BB for fourth since that makes it quite a bit more powerful. I put two points into Rico and then stop, since any bounce after the third is going to be very weak (especially if you lack DPS items), only dealing half damage and only if there's at least four targets in range to hit. BB, on the other hand, doesn't have as much for diminishing returns, so I max that first, then go back to Rico.

Dart, the problem with your figures is that you can't assume that a certain fixed percentage of the total damage you deal with Rico will transfer to the hero; that's just not how it works. What you have to remember is just how Ricochet works.

First point: 78% damage to secondary target
Second point: 61% damage to third target
Third point: 47% damage to fourth target
Fourth point: 37% damage to fifth target
Fifth point: 29% damage to sixth target

Note that each rank doesn't increase how much damage you deal to the enemy hero with each hit, just makes it more likely that you will hit the hero for an increasingly small amount of damage

Obviously, the first rank is really good, the second rank is decent, but it all goes downhill the more you add, since in order for an extra rank to matter you have to actually have enough targets to hit them all, AND you do increasingly less damage to each target.


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Slide

Senior Member

01-14-2010

Hey Sethala,

Just want to warn you about what your planing. If you take a point in ricochet, and use it, (EDIT: in combination with BB) you will have SEVERE mana problems early game. She doesnt have the mana or regen to support the 2 abilities, even with good spellshield use, tuill she has a chalice.

Secondly, you need to remember that BB actually does AMAZING damage early game. The earlier you max it, the better it is.

You are correct in that ricochet gets more effective the later in the game it is as you have more items buffing your auto attack. Boomerang blade is the opposite. It is more effective the earlier it is.

It does take practice, but early BB's is definitely the way to go. Give your idea a try, but when you run into those crazy mana problems, switch it up. BB first till you get chalice (at level 4) solves the problem and gives you better bang for your buck. A small level advatnage (by getting a kill) is all you need for a high level BB at the end of laning to REALLY hurt someone BAD. Nevermind if you hot a whole creep wave (nearly killing them all( AND manage to hit heroes with it. The damage potential early on is MUCH higher with BB.

Anyways, give it a shot. Using both early like that will cause you mana problems (ive tried, and I even use clarity glyphs). Once you have a chalice though you can sustain both if your only using ricochet when you absolutely need it. which is obviously right after you throw your high powered BB so mop up the wave. Youy then turn it off till the next wave gets there after you throw your BB.

In any case, glad we could help. I always like seeing other Sivirs out there as it lets me play someone else. I find Sivir brings so much winning power to a team (pushing and auras) when built properlly that not having her on the team means the team is far less powerful.

Cheers,
QUICKSLIDE


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ZO KidKaiser

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Senior Member

01-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethala View Post
Looking at the Sivir guides and playing a few games as her myself, I'm wondering which skill is actually better to max first. The main comment I've seen for Ricochet is that BB is a mana hog, and since Ricochet is good for clearing out creeps, it's better to max that first.

The flaw I'm seeing with this argument is that extra points in Ricochet don't actually add much; the only change is how many enemies you can hit with it. Putting 2 points in it right away means that you're already hitting three things. A third point will make you deal half normal damage to a fourth enemy, assuming one's in range. To me, that just doesn't seem as useful as a higher damage boomerang.

Of course, I'm still pretty new to this game, and not very good at it yet, so I may be horribly wrong. Thoughts?
sorry if i posted what someone else already suggested, i didnt read through the whole thread so yeah. anyways. i think maxing out boomer is probably better. i dont even use Ricochet until it reaches lvl3 anyways, since at lvl1 its just a waste of your precious mana and the same with lvl2, but when Ricochet reaches lvl3 it becomes more useful. and also getting ATLEAST 1 level into spell shield is a must. i'll post what i skill lvl when i play Sivir.

1-boomer
2-Ric
3-boomer
4-boomer
5-Ric
6-Ult (dont remember name.)
7-boomer
8-boomer (maxed)
9-spell shield

then from here. i should have maxed boomer, lvl3 Ric, ult lvl1, and SS lvl1. hmm. help this sorta helps you in a way.


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shamallow

Junior Member

01-14-2010

I tried to so some of the maths myself.
First I must say that I'm not a pro. I usually prefer to get ricochet, but I never did the math before...

Also, i'm not at home, so I'm not entierly sure if my numbers are ok, but they come from this place:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...attle_Mistress

Also, I assume no rune or mastery for simplicity. You can add them at the end if you care to do the maths.

Ricochet: -22 % (not 25!) per bounce
Boomerang: 60/115/170/225/280 -10% subsequent damage each time u hit a unit

So here it goes:
At level 1
Ricochet
Base damage: 50
Atk speed: 0,68

DPS: 50 * 0,68 * 78% = 26,5


BB
Assuming you hit 6 creeps + 1 hero 2 times (which I find hard to believe, unless your opponent is really stupid)
Damage for BB
(60+54+48,6+43,7+39,4+35,4+31,9)*2 = 626

Assume you cast the spell once every 20 seconds (wich is fast IMO)
626/20 = 31,3

Now say you hit only 4 creeps and 1 hero (2 times each)
(60+54+48,6+43,7+39,4)*2 = 491
491/20 = 24,55

At level 2 of each spell (assuming you are at level 3 at this moment)
Ricochet
Base damage : 55,75
Atk speed: 0,72
DPS: 55,75*0,78*0,72 + 55,75*0,78*0,78*0,72 = 55,7 DPS

BB
Assuming 6 creeps + 1 hero
(115+103,5+93,15+83,84+75,45+67,91+61,11)*2 = 1200

DPS: 1200/20 = 60

If you hit 4 creeps + 1 hero
(115+103,5+93,15+83,84+75,45)*2 = 941

DPS: 941/20 = 47


I can't continue further as I have to get back to work (!), but the way I see it, unless you hit PERFECTLY with each Boomerang, ricochet outputs a better DPS.
Also, you probably might runes/masteries to raise either attack speed or raw damage, but probably not your AP.


Comments?


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MBirk

Senior Member

01-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUICKSLIDE View Post
Sorry folks, couldnt get back top thread. Here are my comments:

@Mbirk: You need to test again. It is magical damage.
No. I don't. its physical. I tested it. you clearly didn't.

Veigar saying its magical, then correcting himself, after I corrected him.
Ricochet is physical.
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...t=45999&page=4


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MBirk

Senior Member

01-14-2010

1. if you are not getting meki's pendant>chalice for sivir first, you are probably doing it wrong.

2. BB is not for farming. Its for killing champs, and last hitting. You have total control over it, and it hits much harder with that control.

3. Ricochet works well to harass, in keeping champs away from minions, with what is effectively random splash damage. Ricochet scales with your attack speed and +damage, and thus becomes much more effective later in the game as supplemental dps.

But the killing power of BB is needed early game.


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Slide

Senior Member

01-14-2010

Aparently your right MBirk.

It certainly used to be Magical Damage. It appears to be phyical now. Never saw a change to that in patch notes. It stil doesnt carry any effects, takes crits into account or any of that. Acts just like it used to just what stat resists it changed......somewhere along the line.

The rest youve got right. Ricochet, regardless of faulty mathcraft, is not as good as BB early game.

I still contend that it is great for farming. Yes its killing power is great early on. Yes often you can really hurt people with it, but in a difficult lane, against someone who can dodge it consistently, its best to forgo trying to prioritize the champion. Use it to knock down the creep wave and get your last hits for your farming. If you can wait till the enemy champion is in line or in the creep wave, all the better as it will disrupt them.

Basically what Im saying is you need to judge it based on your oponent. Some people know how to lane against Sivir and have a champ that can do it well. In this cases my laning always comes out better by prioritizing the creep wave over the enemy champion. Push them back to their tower and let the tower steal their gold. More often then not I will push the tower by level 6 or 7 doing this and procedd to switch lanes, try for a gank, but mainly push that tower. After pushing all the first 3 towers, I am close to or at 11 and have my starks, at which point you 5 man push mid right to the inhib.

@Shamallow: Your math is right but there are a few things it doesnt take into account. Mostly the fact that Armor is higher then MR at those levels - more mitigation to ricochet, secondly, no one is going to sit there and let you bounce blades off of them, third BB is burst (meaning you have a greater chance of actually seeing the DPS you calculated) and lastly, BB, being burst, will kill the enemy creep wave faster (when you also take your creeps into account). This creates a minor snowball effect in the creep VS creep battle, causing you to win it. This pushes the lane into the enemy tower denying them gold. More importantly, and this is a BIG one, A high early BB will whipe a creep wave fast enough that, when a hero comes to you for a kill, you can quickly change the field of battle to your favor IE: killing off all their creeps so your creep wave attacks the enemy hero.

Playing Sivir is as much about working the creep waves as it is anything else. Obviously you cant account for these things, and I thank you for doing the math.

Oh, almost forgot and its probably the largest fault with your math, you are still autoattacking while you shoot your BB. So you either need to add her normal DPS to the BB calculation, putting it WAY over ricochet OR you need to remove the first attack from your ricochet calculations.

EDIT: looking at your numbers again, you may have done this. Not quite sure. Did you?

Either way BB is FAR better.


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shamallow

Junior Member

01-14-2010

@QuickSlide
The direct damage for auto-attacking wasnt taked into account in either of my calculations, so it does not matter.
For the armor, it seemed unclear to me if it was phisical or magical, so I didnt take that into account.

However, I agree that burst damage is better then damage over time, and since the difference in DPS is quite small, from now on I'll choose BB first, so beware if you meet me in a game :P

I still think Ricochet is not such a bad choice either though, especially if you think you will have difficulty with your skill shots.


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Prospero

Member

01-14-2010

The problem with the DPS comparison above is that there is no way you are firing off Boomerang Blade every 20 seconds; you just don't have the mana for that. With ricochet you can actually keep up that DPS constantly.

Again, BB wins the burst damage fight, but I think with ricochet you can keep up a constant barrage of pain. I still need to try BB again though. I got sucked into practicing my Shaco game last night.


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Grovel

Senior Member

01-14-2010

I always take BB first, but find it far more useful to get Ricochet to at least level 2 as quickly as possible for harassment. Picking away at your opponents health little by little makes them all the more wary of your BB. When all you're using is BB you need great timing to kill multiple creeps and get double hits on Champs.

I'd love to see Sivir who relies only on BB for farming and harassment, who can stay in lane and have enough mana left over to threaten with an early kill.

Going all BB against a Sivir with Ricochet and Life Steal yesterday made me feel insignificant.