Sivir: Boomering or Ricochet?

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Slide

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purutzil View Post
Ricochet is incredibly good the faster you max it. I'll get Ricochet and invest in boomarang and 1 point in shield. Ricochet adds the ability to kill creeps and push faster AND can even go about hitting enemy heros while your pushing the lane back at the same time. This makes it incredibly effective by providing in support in two ways. Added in is the fact that the mana drained by Ricochet lets you push lanes much longer.

Don't forget also ricochet can go as far as hitting enemies without having to be so close giving you a range advantage at the same time as killing creeps.
Oh your right, the only thing is Boomerang Blade does it better. Every single thing you just mentioned.

It kills creeps better.

It pushes faster (due to creeps dying faster)

It hurts heroes FAR more (seriously ricochet is pitiful in damage).

It is CERTAINLY easier to use ricochet, but FAR less effective.

They both pretty much do the same thing, one just requires MUCh more skill and when used properlly is FAR more effective.

EDIT: Didnt see the post about ricochet crit the first time. No it doesnt crit, yes it is absolutely 100% magical damage and hence does not leech, nor does it apply on hit effects.

Ricochet is good for pushing via killing creep waves, killing creeps at enemy towers while attacking the towers (so your creep wave can go back to smacking the enemy tower as soon as possible) and for farming up gold. It is trully a pathetic ability for doing anything to champions. The 25% damage reduction per bounce and its magical nature ensure this.


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Prospero

Member

01-13-2010

My experience is that relying BB means you need a helluva lot of mana, which is fine, but I prefer being able to go pretty much straight for starks with just my starting mana manipulator. I can wipe out creep waves very quickly with ricochet, and I can very happily pound on heroes sitting near their turrets with ricochet without taking damage.

Boomerang blade is great, there is no doubt, but I've had much more success with maxing ricochet, even when solo mid. Part of it is that I tend to play goalie for my team; I have clair to keep track of junglers and potential ganks and call them out for my teammates. It is nice being able to fire and forget, but that doesn't mean I'm ineffective either.

BB is burst damage. Ricochet is continuous pain.


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Slide

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Ricochet Damage is laughable. Seriously. Do the math.

Yes, it is more difficult to use BB. You need to pay more attention to your mana and you need to make them count.

As I said, ricochet is FAR easier to use. I grant you that. As far as how effective they are BB beats it every single time if you are skilled.

As far as your goalie comment goes, I assume you mean defending. By the time that part of the game rolls around, either BB or ricochet or even a split will work perfectly fine for that purpose. As I said, BB and ricochet serve the same purpose. One takes more skill and is more effcetiove if used properlly.


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Prospero

Member

01-13-2010

Not so much defending as spending extra energy to keep track of the map. I solo-Q pretty much entirely, and I've found it saves lives to keep on top of the mini map a bit more than usual. Clair lets me reveal to other lanes where ganks are setup. I suspect I'm upper mid ELO, so my teammates still aren't terribly good at keeping track of enemy movements.

I'm pretty solid with BB at this point; it's rare I throw it and don't get a double hit on at least one champ, and I can usually snag a good chunk of the creep wave as well, so I don't think lack of skill is my problem. I'll take it for another spin tonight and see how it goes.


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WayMaker

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Recruiter

01-13-2010

As I mentioned before, I found a combination of both to be fairly affective, but I'm assuming thats because I'm mid, not high ELO. I've finished off a lot of champions with ricochet both early and later in the game, spiral blade is amazing, but you have to wait for its cooldown before using it again (golem buff helps with that though), which leaves you ricochet in many situations especially if going for 2 different running targets that aren't positioned to be hit by one spiral blade. I've gotten a decent number of kills from bouncing the attack from the person nearest to me and finishing off the person who was farther away from bounces. Ricochet works fine against squishier champions who don't have much armor or magic resist.

As far as ricochet doing magic damage, yes I'm sure it only does that, but I thought I would test the crit thing out just for fun in a practice game (never a real one) to confirm that bounces are not physical.


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Prospero

Member

01-13-2010

Bounces are indeed magical and they use your non-crit damage for the damage calculation.


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MBirk

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Just tested it myself.

I didn't use boomerang a single time in game.
I got ricochet and used it nonstop.

At the end of the game. Magic damage dealt:0
Damage dealt:141,385.

I tested with Black cleaver on the double golem pack for easy comparison.
Direct hit 151, 117 richochet.
Second hit 175 dh, 117 richochet
Switch target. 151 DH, 157 richochet. Armor pen increased the damage of ricochet.
(Black cleaver only applies the effect on the first target. Starks applies an aura to champs.)

Ricochet is physical damage. it is effected by armor pen(of the actual target, not the first hit). It can not crit.


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sainthero

Senior Member

01-13-2010

I would max BB first and spell shield then ricochet last. I build Sivir with AP thats why. She's a better defender and can kill champs in two hits, wreak havoc in team fights too.


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Dartagne

Member

01-14-2010

As an avid Sivir player, i think that it is important to do a lot of damage. The calculations below help shed some light on which skill is better. These calculations make some assumptions, ie: 20 seconds between BB casts (which is fast) and 75% of dmg from BB hitting a hero, only 25% of dmg from ricochet hittin a hero. Armor and Magic resist are not considered.

The comparison is still somewhat subjective in the sense that it is unclear how often hits will land and also that BB is "aimable," though easily dodged. Ricochet is not-so-much-aimable but much less easily dodged, but it also depends on amounts of targets/bounces and which sequence of bounce hits whom.

However, one thing is remarkably clear and that is that ricochet outputs gigantic amounts of DPS over BB. The moral of the story: Ricochets is usually much better than BB. However, in some instances/situations, of course BB will be better.

It has been said before many times but in the early game you have four main responsibilities. By good early game play, you are setting yourself up for later game excellence.
1. Stay alive.
2. Get gold.
3. Push your green creeps to red team's tower so red opponent cannot farm gold off green creeps because red tower is killing all of the green creeps while you are killing all of the red creeps and getting gold.
4. Harass opponent.
By using ricochet and outputting more dps, you are much more efficiently contributing to all 4 of these factors than by using BB.

Final note: Once you figure out how to stay alive, working the 1. ricochet/ 2. bb combination can do wonders for your early gold income and this can lead to later game dominance.


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Slide

Senior Member

01-14-2010

Sorry folks, couldnt get back top thread. Here are my comments:

@Mbirk: You need to test again. It is magical damage.

@Sainthero: Ap, really? Complete waste. She has 1 ability that scales with AP and its not on a short enough cooldown to be her main source of damage all game.

@Dartagne: I have a couple issues with your stats. First being, Sivir does not attack once per second at level 1. I even use attack speed runes and she doesnt attack that fast. Obviously this makes all your ricochet claculations moot as you started at 1 attack per second at level one and went up from there.

The second issue I have is 40% Magic Resist at level 1. VERY FEW champs can do that and they need to be specced for it. You also did not take any mitigation into aco**** for ricochet while you did for BB. Way to skew your numbers.

Your stats were basically padded to have ricochet come out on top, and even then its a VERY small margin.

Lastly I want to say this, were talking about the first 3 levels of the game here. Each of the people touting ricochet in this thread has based everything on Richochet bouncing a single time. At level 4 with sivir you should have 2 levels of BB, 1 level of spellshield and one level of ricochet.

Every argument presented for ricochet has been in a scenario where you would ALREADY have 2 or 3 points in ricochet if you focused on boomerang blade. EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE. Worse yet, everyone uses the very first bounce for their damage or theoretical situations.

By level 7 you have 3 points of BB and 2 points in Ricochet.

The only thing we should really be talking about is those first couple levels as after that point, you have both anyways.

If we add in (and Im sure everyone in the thread will agree) that ricochet and bouncing blade work best in tandem with each other (equal levels of both are better then one stacked as the purpose of both abilities is really to whipe creepwaves in seconds) we can completely ignore this question for anything but the early laning phase laning phase.

The bottom line is, 1 or 2 levels of ricochet at the beginning opf the game are far less effective then 1 or 2 levels of boomerang blade.

Boomerang blade does more busrt damage (and at levels 1-3 thats what you want!)

Boomerang blade does more damage to creeps and can even get the champion in there. 1 or 2 levels of ricochet will NOT do this.

Boomerang blade is FAR better at claiming FB from someone sitting behind their tower. Once you know the length of the skillshot, it gets pretty simple to hit someone standing still with both strikes, at the end of the shot so they cant dodge it.

Boomerange blade has better range then ricochet (max ricochet bouncing down a line of creeps WILL go farther, but in general BB's range is better and FAR more reliable) which makes it easier to haass with safely early in the game.

Boomerang blade at level 1 can hit every creep in the wave for good damage. Ricochet needs MANY levels in it before it can match the farming potential of BB.

Again as BB can hit every creep in the wave at level one, it is FAR superior for pushing. You get 1 per wave and its all you need.

So just to clarify again for any further posters, this discussion is on the first 3 levels of the game. Do you go with BB or ith ricochet.

Personally I think its pretty clear whats more effective, but would love to hear a counter argument as to why ricochet is better that early. Well one that is NOT backed up by rigged numbers like Dartagne (sorry dude, but that was a REALLY biased calculation).