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Which is better

1st build 32 84.21%
2nd build 6 15.79%
Voters 38 .

Kayle build vs Kayle build.

123
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Kalcos

Senior Member

01-25-2011

Quote:
Gunflame:
1. One thing is being hard and another thing being possible. You ALWAYS cast reckoning AND righteous fury at the same time. Why? Because Reckoning increases your autoattack damage so does RF... If the enemy is running away you will cast heal immediately to keep your distance close to the target. 2 triggers every 10 second is about the most you will get (1 at the start and 1 after a little while).

2. Kayle is like Kogmaw or Ashe... in teamfights (you do have team fights.. right?) She stays outside the perimeter and attacks. If she is not attacking she is running away. She doesn't poke like Ezreal does and doesn't initiate as Sion. Yes I have plenty of oportunities where I just sit behind my melee and tanks and just attack for 10 seconds non-stop.

3. Hextech also gives you 93 AP which will also sinergy with deathcap passive (if you choose to pick it). Meaning 80 AP*1.3 vs 93 AP*1.3. AP wise Hextech is obviously more powerful than Lichbane. You are saying lichbane gives you 700 attack per 1.5


1. If you are chasing, your teamates usually have better cc than you, so it's possible to save your CD for damage and you also have summoners. I don't see how auto-attack will fare any better. In fact it's even worse because of animation delay, particularly on Kayle since her attack animation is very front-loaded. Animation-cancel on her doesn't save as much time as on other champions.

2. First, if your opponents let a ranged carry stay at one spot and auto-attack non-stop for 10s, you have already won the teamfight. Also Kayle's range is 525, which is a lot shorter than Kog and Ashe. She's not as safe as them since she is in the range of most abilities and CC. I don't want a debate on what's the proper way to play a ranged carry so I'll just let people decide according to their playstyle. If you tend to reposition often - Lichbane is a lot better than attack speed, and if you are able to stay at one spot and attack non-stop for 10s without interference, then in similar situations it's hard not to proc at least 3 LBs.

3. 700 per 1.5... what? Not quite sure what you meant. Anyway yes LB gives lower auto-attack damage it should be obvious however LB's proc more than make up for it.

Quote:
Gunflame:

But here's the truth...

It is (a) nashor+hextech vs (b)lichbane+deathcap... is this fair?
(a) costs = 5655
(b) costs = 6920
Difference: 1265... would it be fair to say that I can buy 5 green elixirs and still have money left? (20 mins of green elixirs)


Ah... what?
Nashor + Gunblade = 6510
Lichbane + Deathap = 6870
Difference: 360... I guess you can buy one green pot and a ward.

When you say truth at least double check your math. -_-

Quote:
Gunflame:

Lets analyze the stats:
- 0.625 Attack speed + 2.3% per level. Assume no runes or masteries that improve attack speed.
- lvl 15 = +34.5% attack speed
- Guinsoo (max) = +32%
- Nashor = +55%
- Green at lvl 15: 20% attack speed 8% critical

Attack Speed
(a) 34.5%+32%+55%+20%= +141.2% Or 1.5 attack speed
(b) 34.5%+32%= +66.5% or 1.0 attack

Your assumption that Attack speed is 1.5 with your build is WRONG!. So your math is flawed...


You didn't state your hypothetial build so I couldn't really compare. I was assuming level 18 since it's very unlikely to get like 10k gold before then unless fed.

My assumption was:

Kayle @18 = 1 attack/s
Attack speed runes = 17%
Rageblade = 32%

Approximately 1.5 attack/s... One may argue that you don't start with 8 stacks Rageblade but I'm not sure how to factor this in the equation. I'll just assume Nashor-Gunblade build has 0.5 attack/s advantage over LB build in my following analysis.

Quote:
Gunflame:

Calculating the damage of each build takes a long time because of all the implications that each of them bring... but just by the attack speed alone you can see Kayle gets 5 extra attacks over 10 seconds. Each attack usually deal 300-350 physical damage. That's the 1500 extra physical damage while you only get 2 procs of lichbane for 1000 extra damage. And you dont get life steal to keep yourself healthy.


The key words here is "just by attack speed alone"... when you have to account for procs, and higher damage per hit because of Deathcap, that amplify total damage output, why would you only compare attack speed? Because it's convenient for you? Seriously it's not even a valid comparison. Don't take me for a fool.

I insist that it's easy to proc at least 3 times in 10s, definitely easier than staying at one spot and attack non-stop for 10s. If you can't you probably need some practices. Please don't argue with me on the ground that's only 2 procs even if in your scenario you are allowed to stay at one spot and attack non-stop for 10s. If you still do that we may as well drop this discussion immediately because it'd be pointless.

Let's for argument's sake, we assume Nashor-Gunblade build has 1.5 attack/s while Deathcap-Lichbane build has 1.0 attack/s. Let's also assume Nashor-Gunblade build does 300 damage per hit, so it's 1500 damage advantage over a 10s period. So to make up for the attack speed advantage, LB build has to deal 1500 damage.

3 procs with 500 ap = 1500 damage. Already breaks even with the attack speed advantage. Now we look at the damage per hit difference between two builds.

Damage per hit provided by Nashor + Gunblade:

Nashor: 55ap*0.45 = 24.75
Gunblade: 60ad*1.09 + 75ap*0.45 = 99.15
Total = 123.9

Damage per hit provided by Deathcap + Lichbane:

Deathcap: 155ap*1.3*0.45 = 90.675
Lichbane: 80ap*1.3*0.45 = 46.8
Total = 137.475

Already surpasses GB build... and we have not included the Deathcap's bonus AP from other sources like Rageblade, blue pot, base attack's ap from passive (like about 30) and any other additional AP items (Gunblade is a good 6th item I don't object that). The splash damage also scales better with AP so a high AP LB build will deal more AoE damage.

Lichbane allows you to melt tower and bd with the speed bonus. MR is always good on ranged carry. Burst damage is often preferable. Its utility is by no means inferior to a slow nuke + lifesteal. I'd rather spare 450g for a vamp scepter if I want some lifesteal, while speed bonus and tower melting ability is a lot harder to itemize for.

Quote:
Gunflame:

First: I said boosting your heal just for the sake of boosting it is not worth it... you should not build around it, but getting it is not bad to build items that help it. It is decent but you are not gonna completely change your build because of your heal.

Second: Madred's is an excellent item for Kayle... better than Lichbane. But depends on which targets you are trying t gun down. If you have a high armor+low MR target that you need to kill, madred is the item to get.

I recommend almost all other DPS items over Lichbane. Even Trinity Force. Trinity also gives you a nice boost (220 AD => +280 extra damage), but also gives you attack speed, a slow AND critical damage. It is just more powerful than lichbane though it costs 500 more.

Black cleaver
Infinite Executioner
Madred's
Starks
Deathcap (if you want some extra healing it could be useful while still gives you +120 damage to each attack)


If you think heal is decent, then how can you ignore a 500 hp heal that doesn't gimp your damage much if any? Its damage only really loses out to full ad builds but they have less utility.

Madred is almost always better than Gunblade because it deals more dmg to squishies, and way more damage to beefies. Ranged carries often have no choice but to attack the tankier targets so Madred helps a lot here.

Triforce is good as I've said, I just prefer utility with high AP because not many champions have utility spells that scale with ap and at the same time can deal high DPS. Kayle is kind of unique in that. There are other champions who are better served by Triforce.

Lichbane is a follow-up item for Deathcap... you don't build Lichbane without Deathcap. Hold on to Sheen until then. The point of Lichbane is to turn your high AP which already benefits 3 of your spells to burst damage.


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Diesel Venom

Senior Member

01-26-2011

guinsoo = overrated


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