Which is better

1st build 32 84.21%
2nd build 6 15.79%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

Kayle build vs Kayle build.

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Kalcos

Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
Between Lichbane and Trinity force, Trinity is better... why? Well Lichbane does give you more Burst (since you always have a significant amount of AP over your AD), but you get a Slow on it, more HP, faster attack speed and crits. It is just better to go trinity than going Lichbane.
Trinity is a pretty good item and Kayle can proc it rather easily. Thing is Kayle isn't the optimal Triforce user. The AD and AP bonus is too small to have significant synergy with her passive. Every time I use Trifoce on Kayle I think to myself why not play Ezreal or Corki instead? Where if you build AP + Lichbane you get a strong nuke, a decent heal and the Lichbane really spikes up your damage. It's the unique thing that only Kayle can do so I tend to build Lichbane instead whenever I get the chance.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

01-18-2011

Kalcos what kind of build are you talking about?

Anyways both items are **** compared to Black Cleaver, Hextech Gunblade, Deathcap and IE. So....


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Fumobix

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Senior Member

01-18-2011

i havent builded nashor since new malady, nashor is quite expensive, if i need cd i get the boots but ussually my ult is always up with runes + the 2 masteries

Rageblade+Ionan/merc boots+Malady, then i build a situational item if im getting focused to much i build a defensive item otherwise i build a madreds


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Fumobix

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Senior Member

01-18-2011

wtf my post just disapeared gonna post it again
I dont like nashor at all i think its quite expensive and doesnt boost ur damage to much at all
I ussually go Rageblade+ Ionan/merc boots+ Malady+ Defensive item/ Madreds


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Kalcos

Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
Kalcos what kind of build are you talking about?

Anyways both items are **** compared to Black Cleaver, Hextech Gunblade, Deathcap and IE. So....
Rageblade, Deathcap, Lichbane

You are guranteed 3 procs in 10s. It's like 3 crits that scale with AP. It's extremely good.

Gunblade is not that good. Too many subpar stats. Madred provides better dps and survivability.


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NmE EnRuins

Member

01-19-2011

Why does everyone talk about the damage, I've yet to see anything on her heal or ult. Sure trying to make the most out of her passive is great. But in the end, she is one of the few champs that can heal, and one of the few champs that can "break" the rules(immunity).


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KrupsMcGee

Senior Member

01-19-2011

I've built her so many different ways, and I'm convinced now that Rageblade then Gunblade is the way to go. I would consider these her core items.

If you're comfortable going into a fight, hitting e and going to town I would get Malady, Black Cleaver

If you're getting focused and would rather hang back and support, Deathcap and Void Staff

Leave room for a situational defense item.

Nashor's is still a great item on Kayle, but I think there are more efficient options.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

01-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnRuins View Post
Why does everyone talk about the damage, I've yet to see anything on her heal or ult. Sure trying to make the most out of her passive is great. But in the end, she is one of the few champs that can heal, and one of the few champs that can "break" the rules(immunity).
Her heal is very crappy. It works better for the slight movement speed than the heal. It only have a 0.5 AP ratio, a low base heal and a very long cooldown, it helps of course but it is nothing worth building for.

About her ulti. There´s only one way to boost her ulti. That's with Cooldown reduction and with 6% runes+9% masteries+25% nashor you get 39.85% CDR. So the standard build with nashor makes it a great choice (personally I dont use CDR runes because I use blue elixir for an extra 10% CDR)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalcos View Post
Rageblade, Deathcap, Lichbane

You are guranteed 3 procs in 10s. It's like 3 crits that scale with AP. It's extremely good.

Gunblade is not that good. Too many subpar stats. Madred provides better dps and survivability.
- You are NOT guarantee 3 procs. You need to time you heal and your reckoning to get 3 procs. Guess what.... if you are chasing someone your heal will be on cooldown and so your reckoning, you will be lucky to get 5 procs ove 20 seconds

- You don't spend 10 seconds on small squirmishes, you spend 4-5 seconds and I'm pretty sure you will only get 1 proc

- Gunblade its AMAZING FOR KAYLE... only Guinsoo's rageblade is a better item. The only wasted stat is spell vamp. Life steal is great for Kayle as you will always get hit and it heals you without spending mana (try fighting a 1v1 Yi/WW and you will know why it is good).

Stats from hextech (without the active):
60 attack-> +18 AP
75 ap->+11 AP
20% life steal.
Total: 93 AP+71 AD.
With RF: 93 AP + 99 AD

Soooo Hextech gives you + 99 Attack damage PER attack. At 1.5 attack per second that 1500 damage in 10 seconds.

To beat that with lichbane you need between 400-500 AP and time CORRECTLY your attacks and spells. You don't get a slow and you don't get life leach.

I don't have time to keep going but it is obvious that lichbane is not that great. It is not useless but definetly not that great.


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Kalcos

Senior Member

01-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
Her heal is very crappy. It works better for the slight movement speed than the heal. It only have a 0.5 AP ratio, a low base heal and a very long cooldown, it helps of course but it is nothing worth building for.

About her ulti. There´s only one way to boost her ulti. That's with Cooldown reduction and with 6% runes+9% masteries+25% nashor you get 39.85% CDR. So the standard build with nashor makes it a great choice (personally I dont use CDR runes because I use blue elixir for an extra 10% CDR)




- You are NOT guarantee 3 procs. You need to time you heal and your reckoning to get 3 procs. Guess what.... if you are chasing someone your heal will be on cooldown and so your reckoning, you will be lucky to get 5 procs ove 20 seconds

- You don't spend 10 seconds on small squirmishes, you spend 4-5 seconds and I'm pretty sure you will only get 1 proc

- Gunblade its AMAZING FOR KAYLE... only Guinsoo's rageblade is a better item. The only wasted stat is spell vamp. Life steal is great for Kayle as you will always get hit and it heals you without spending mana (try fighting a 1v1 Yi/WW and you will know why it is good).

Stats from hextech (without the active):
60 attack-> +18 AP
75 ap->+11 AP
20% life steal.
Total: 93 AP+71 AD.
With RF: 93 AP + 99 AD

Soooo Hextech gives you + 99 Attack damage PER attack. At 1.5 attack per second that 1500 damage in 10 seconds.

To beat that with lichbane you need between 400-500 AP and time CORRECTLY your attacks and spells. You don't get a slow and you don't get life leach.

I don't have time to keep going but it is obvious that lichbane is not that great. It is not useless but definetly not that great.
1. It's not hard to time for proc. With 40% cdr, over 20s, Q can proc 4 times, E can proc 1-2 times, W can proc 3 times.

2. You don't get to stand and attack non-stop with auto-attack either. In fact Lichbane proc is particularly good for kiting and chasing.

3. Lichbane gives 80 AP, which synergizes with Deathcap's passive = 104 AP. 104*0.45 = 46.8 dmg per hit with RF. That's 702 damage with 1.5 attack/s over 10s. 1500-702 = 798 which is 1.6 procs to break even with 500 ap . It's extremely hard to not proc at least 2 times over 10s. Rageblade + Deathcap + Lichbane = 400 ap, + blue pot = 500 ap, 8 stacks Rageblade = 600 ap. It's not unreasonable late game build.

How often do you get to attack non-stop for 10s? With Lichbane you can attack/cast spell, reposition, then attack/cast spell and not suffer significant dps loss. If you want lifesteal simply buy a vamp scepter and only finish it to Gunblade as your last item.

If you think her heal is not worth building for... then there is even less reason to consider Gunblade over say, Madred Bloodrazor. Against a 2000 hp target, Madred is doing 4% of 2000 = 80 + 30 ad = 110 damage - already surpasses Gunblade. And it adds 0.4 attack per second for Kayle @level 18 as well. And it also gives you 25 armor. Gunblade is a really situational item.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

01-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalcos View Post
1. It's not hard to time for proc. With 40% cdr, over 20s, Q can proc 4 times, E can proc 1-2 times, W can proc 3 times.

2. You don't get to stand and attack non-stop with auto-attack either. In fact Lichbane proc is particularly good for kiting and chasing.

3. Lichbane gives 80 AP, which synergizes with Deathcap's passive = 104 AP. 104*0.45 = 46.8 dmg per hit with RF. That's 702 damage with 1.5 attack/s over 10s. 1500-702 = 798 which is 1.6 procs to break even with 500 ap . It's extremely hard to not proc at least 2 times over 10s. Rageblade + Deathcap + Lichbane = 400 ap, + blue pot = 500 ap, 8 stacks Rageblade = 600 ap. It's not unreasonable late game build.

How often do you get to attack non-stop for 10s? With Lichbane you can attack/cast spell, reposition, then attack/cast spell and not suffer significant dps loss. If you want lifesteal simply buy a vamp scepter and only finish it to Gunblade as your last item.

If you think her heal is not worth building for... then there is even less reason to consider Gunblade over say, Madred Bloodrazor. Against a 2000 hp target, Madred is doing 4% of 2000 = 80 + 30 ad = 110 damage - already surpasses Gunblade. And it adds 0.4 attack per second for Kayle @level 18 as well. And it also gives you 25 armor. Gunblade is a really situational item.
1. One thing is being hard and another thing being possible. You ALWAYS cast reckoning AND righteous fury at the same time. Why? Because Reckoning increases your autoattack damage so does RF... If the enemy is running away you will cast heal immediately to keep your distance close to the target. 2 triggers every 10 second is about the most you will get (1 at the start and 1 after a little while).

2. Kayle is like Kogmaw or Ashe... in teamfights (you do have team fights.. right?) She stays outside the perimeter and attacks. If she is not attacking she is running away. She doesn't poke like Ezreal does and doesn't initiate as Sion. Yes I have plenty of oportunities where I just sit behind my melee and tanks and just attack for 10 seconds non-stop.

3. Hextech also gives you 93 AP which will also sinergy with deathcap passive (if you choose to pick it). Meaning 80 AP*1.3 vs 93 AP*1.3. AP wise Hextech is obviously more powerful than Lichbane. You are saying lichbane gives you 700 attack per 1.5


But here's the truth...

It is (a) nashor+hextech vs (b)lichbane+deathcap... is this fair?
(a) costs = 5655
(b) costs = 6920
Difference: 1265... would it be fair to say that I can buy 5 green elixirs and still have money left? (20 mins of green elixirs)

Lets analyze the stats:
- 0.625 Attack speed + 2.3% per level. Assume no runes or masteries that improve attack speed.
- lvl 15 = +34.5% attack speed
- Guinsoo (max) = +32%
- Nashor = +55%
- Green at lvl 15: 20% attack speed 8% critical

Attack Speed
(a) 34.5%+32%+55%+20%= +141.2% Or 1.5 attack speed
(b) 34.5%+32%= +66.5% or 1.0 attack

Your assumption that Attack speed is 1.5 with your build is WRONG!. So your math is flawed...

Calculating the damage of each build takes a long time because of all the implications that each of them bring... but just by the attack speed alone you can see Kayle gets 5 extra attacks over 10 seconds. Each attack usually deal 300-350 physical damage. That's the 1500 extra physical damage while you only get 2 procs of lichbane for 1000 extra damage. And you dont get life steal to keep yourself healthy.


First: I said boosting your heal just for the sake of boosting it is not worth it... you should not build around it, but getting it is not bad to build items that help it. It is decent but you are not gonna completely change your build because of your heal.

Second: Madred's is an excellent item for Kayle... better than Lichbane. But depends on which targets you are trying t gun down. If you have a high armor+low MR target that you need to kill, madred is the item to get.

I recommend almost all other DPS items over Lichbane. Even Trinity Force. Trinity also gives you a nice boost (220 AD => +280 extra damage), but also gives you attack speed, a slow AND critical damage. It is just more powerful than lichbane though it costs 500 more.

Black cleaver
Infinite Executioner
Madred's
Starks
Deathcap (if you want some extra healing it could be useful while still gives you +120 damage to each attack)


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