Damage Items are balanced upon how effective a ranged Hero is with them.

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AmPriS

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Aside from phage (an item that had its effect altered when used by a ranged hero) all other items give the exact same gains to ranged heroes. Damage items are balanced upon how strong they are in the hands of a ranged hero leaving melee heroes to be less effective with the same item (Yi is an anomaly and still not necessarily as effective).

A ranged hero deals damage from a distance in greater safety, a melee hero is forced to get up and person with them putting themselves at greater risk of death.

It is true ranged heroes as a rule have less HP leaving making them easier to kill if damage can be applied to them. Except for the fact that many ranged dps heroes have escape measures (Trist, Corki). Even if they don't they still at least have Flash. A ranged hero can deal a significant amount of damage before a melee hero can even get near them.

Melee heroes usually have a little bit more HP but it doesn't cut it, it doesn't allow them to close the distance, those melee heroes because of this get some hit point items to increase their survivability. The thing is the ranged heroes can do the same thing. They can get the same defensive items and gain the same benefit from such items.

This is why we had the recent Hp Armor Mr nerf, not because Melee heroes were getting too much benefit from it but because ranged heroes were.

To summarize what I am arguing, Currently Melee heroes and Ranged heroes get the same gains from the vast majority of items. I feel this should not be, being ranged is entirely too much of an advantage to grant the same effect from an item.

It is really fair for an infinity edge to raise a ranged heroes damage to the same degree as a melee hero?

Is it really fair for life steal to leech the same amount of life on ranged heroes and melee heroes?

Items should give more more damage, more life steal, more of whatever to melee heroes and there should be items that melee heroes benefit from that ranged heroes couldn't, ie- item allowing a hero to blink into the melee range of an enemy hero. Items granting greater reduction in crowd control to melee heroes instead of a flat amount to both.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Shaco and Master Yi need buffs right


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zine

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Melee champs have naturally higher base damage
Melee champs all have some way to boost their DPS output hence making their attacks more powerful.
Melee champs will destroy ranged heroes in 1v1 situations.
Melee champs carry harder than ranged heroes.

So what's the problem again?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Melee champs carry harder than ranged heroes.
None of the melee champs carry harder than Twitch and Corki.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AmPriS

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Melee champs have naturally higher base damage
Melee champs all have some way to boost their DPS output hence making their attacks more powerful.
Melee champs will destroy ranged heroes in 1v1 situations.
Melee champs carry harder than ranged heroes.

So what's the problem again?
That difference blurs with items, and is not justified by the lessened risk and ability to get in 2-3 attacks before the melee can.

Ranged champs also have abilities that boost their DPS output.

This isn't a 1v1 game, and even 1on1 that isn't always the case, closing the distance is always an issue.

Ranged Heroes carry games much more often than melee heroes.

Shaco and Yi both have the ability to close the distance. Shaco ganks inattentive people but is rather weak himself, running away from Shaco is what allows him to do so much damage especially when he picks up the lizard buff, he is considerably weaker in a team fight. The only reason people mention Yi is because he can avoid snares, close the distance, continue his rush because Highlander refreshes. He is easily focus fired except for the fact that exhaust doesn't work on him while highlander is up. Yi's abilities are what allows him to compete with ranged heroes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmPriS View Post
Shaco and Yi both have the ability to close the distance. Shaco ganks inattentive people but is rather weak himself, running away from Shaco is what allows him to do so much damage especially when he picks up the lizard buff, he is considerably weaker in a team fight. The only reason people mention Yi is because he can avoid snares, close the distance, continue his rush because Highlander refreshes. He is easily focus fired except for the fact that exhaust doesn't work on him while highlander is up. Yi's abilities are what allows him to compete with ranged heroes.
Shaco is incredibly powerful up until the 5 man gank squad part of the game, and even at that point he's not exactly terrible. He's already incredibly powerful starting from level 2 since he can get both neutral buffs and still be in decent shape at that point. He does ridiculous damage even against tanks up to the mid-game... now imagine how crazy it would be if he actually got even more of a bonus from damage gear.

You bring up how both of these champions have options to close the distance... my question is, which melee carry doesn't? Keep in mind that only one patch ago, Tryndamere was completely ridiculous and dominating at all levels of play.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AmPriS

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
Shaco is incredibly powerful up until the 5 man gank squad part of the game, and even at that point he's not exactly terrible. He's already incredibly powerful starting from level 2 since he can get both neutral buffs and still be in decent shape at that point. He does ridiculous damage even against tanks up to the mid-game... now imagine how crazy it would be if he actually got even more of a bonus from damage gear.

You bring up how both of these champions have options to close the distance... my question is, which melee carry doesn't? Keep in mind that only one patch ago, Tryndamere was completely ridiculous and dominating at all levels of play.
Protip vs Shaco - don't let him get the golem buff early on. This is easy to accomplish. In general if he doesn't get his ganks he sucks. If other melee heroes can close the distance, they cannot do it as often or as well, or in shaco's case escape.

Tryndamere flat out dealt too much damage with great survivability at all points in the game. Having a hero deal too much damage with the ability to close the gap coupled with the ability to survive 6 seconds no matter how much damage was dealt to him is going to make a strong hero. See any Tryns now?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmPriS View Post
Protip vs Shaco - don't let him get the golem buff early on. This is easy to accomplish. In general if he doesn't get his ganks he sucks. If other melee heroes can close the distance, they cannot do it as often or as well, or in shaco's case escape.
Considering Shaco gets ganks and golem buffs even in high level play, I don't think what you're saying is as simple as what you act like it is.

Just about every melee carry has the abilities to close distance well - Jax jump, Trynd spin, Deceive, Highlander, etc. Trynd and Jax aren't exactly hot atm but it's not just because ranged damage is better.

Quote:
Tryndamere flat out dealt too much damage with great survivability at all points in the game. Having a hero deal too much damage with the ability to close the gap coupled with the ability to survive 6 seconds no matter how much damage was dealt to him is going to make a strong hero. See any Tryns now?
You don't see Trynd anymore because there's no reason to bring most carries over Twitch/Corki. Granted, those ARE ranged carries, but they're not top tier just because they're ranged.

[edit]: Well, I guess Twitch's ult counts as being OP partially for its range, but if it didn't do massive AoE damage combined with another AoE damage spell with on attack effects then Twitch wouldn't be nearly as powerful.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AmPriS

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkRamen View Post
Considering Shaco gets ganks and golem buffs even in high level play, I don't think what you're saying is as simple as what you act like it is.

Just about every melee carry has the abilities to close distance well - Jax jump, Trynd spin, Deceive, Highlander, etc. Trynd and Jax aren't exactly hot atm but it's not just because ranged damage is better.

You don't see Trynd anymore because there's no reason to bring most carries over Twitch/Corki. Granted, those ARE ranged carries, but they're not top tier just because they're ranged.

[edit]: Well, I guess Twitch's ult counts as being OP partially for its range, but if it didn't do massive AoE damage combined with another AoE damage spell with on attack effects then Twitch wouldn't be nearly as powerful.
I don't see Shaco ganking organized prepared players who don't push out and do their best to only last hit and who also have map awareness.

Why do you not see Tryn and Jax? You are saying it is not because ranged just do it better?

Yi also has alpha strike which can take him out of combat for a few seconds forcing a target change and allow Yi to reappear on his target to continue to strike them.

The piercing damage is an issue on Twitches Ult but more so is the fact that without as much a single attack speed item, Twitch can boost his attack speed 180 percent, and ontop of that from very long range. After firing maybe 1-3 shots hopefully snare the whole enemy team allowing him to continue to fire safely.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmPriS View Post
I don't see Shaco ganking organized prepared players who don't push out and do their best to only last hit and who also have map awareness.
So I guess ganks just never happen at high levels, right?

Quote:
Why do you not see Tryn and Jax? You are saying it is not because ranged just do it better?
Some ranged champs do it better, but it's not simply due to the virtue of being ranged. And even then, the solution probably isn't to increase everybody else's damage, but instead nerfs to overpowered champions like Twitch.


12