Your build sucks!

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Karathrow

Senior Member

01-16-2011

You, yeah you. The guy who thinks you should stack health on chogath. Or the guy who thinks you should stack attack speed on trundle. The heimer with 6 archangel staffs. Your build sucks and you're hurting your team.

Why? Because balancing your stats is almost always going to result in higher damage than stacking one stat.

Now the funny part is that if I wanted to put the effort into it, it's fairly easily provable with math, but I realize people will just get butthurt and not actually read all this. However I am going to try anyway.

CHOGATH or "Why your tank build sucks."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's take an example like chogath and the stacking. As Cho you have built in health from feast (900 at max rank with 6 stacks). The reason stacking HP when you already have a lot is bad is because of something called effective health.

Quote:
Effective Health:
Not actually in the game, it is useful for determining how much actual damage you can take. The formula is: Health x (1+Armor/100). For example, a 1000 health character with 50 armor has 1500 effective health.

Health Regeneration: Also known as Hp/5 or health per 5 seconds. This statistic determines the amount of health that a champion regenerates over a five second period. Each champion starts with a different rate of base health regeneration. This statistic scales additively.
Source: http://www.leagueoflegends-wiki.com/...ive-statistics

Basically the point is if you have 2000 health and 0 armor, going to 100 armor would reduce your physical damage taken by 50%. So at 2000 health and 0 armor it would take 2000 damage to kill you. At 2000 health and 100 armor it would take 4000 physical damage to kill you. Wow! We just doubled our health with 100 armor, isn't that great?

Essentially buying health, armor and MR all increase how much damage you can take (we all knew this of course). The difference is that you get more total effective health from balancing your armor MR and HP purchases than you do from buying only one of the three. So since cho'gath gets a large amount of health from his feast, it's less effective to increase your survivability to buy a warmoggs than it is to buy armor and MR.

TRUNDLE or "Why your damage dealer build sucks."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's move on to the next example with Trundle. Many people seem to have this confusing mentality where they believe that if a champs abilities gives them a stat, that means they should stack it because it is therefore good for their champion. (i.e. "oh boy, sivirs ult gives me attack speed! I should stack a bunch more to really crank up her damage!")

This mentality is WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WROOOOOOOONG.

Think about it this way. If I am sitting fighting a dummy with 1 damage and 1 attack per second then I deal 1 DPS. Now if I go up to 1 damage and 2 attacks per second then I deal 2 dps. So for getting all the attack speed required to go from 1-2 attacks per second I gained 1 dps. Now if I buy 1 damage on the first example I go to 2 damage and 1 attack per second or 2 dps. Or in the second example, if I go up 1 damage I go from 2 dps to 4 dps. In both examples I could go to the attack speed cap instead but that would only put me to 2.5 dps compared to 4 dps.

So for Sivir/Trundle/etc, they get high attack speed from their special abilities as is. This means its far better to balance your stats out by purchasing damage, crit or armor penetration. Each damage dealing stat scales the value of the other in a similar way to how having more armor/MR means your health pool is essentially larger. IIt's better to have a ton of AD and turn on that AS steroid to deal a lot of damage really fast, than it is to attack really fast with little ad, and then attack slightly faster when you've got your ability on.

HEIMERDINGER (more or less the same thing as trundle except for AP)--------------------------
I saw a Heimerdinger once that had 6 archangels staves. He had 1385 AP and 0 anything else. He had no boots, no health, armor, magic resist, boots or move speed, or even cooldown reduction (although to be fair heimer doesnt really need CDR if you have runes/masteries/ult you are capped usually).

At any rate, assuming the lowest someones MR could be is 30 (which is the lowest base MR at level 18). Heimerdinger would deal 339 damage with a turret on someone with 0 MR. With 30 MR they reduce it to 261 damage. Assuming they have 100 MR (which is not unreasonable or difficult to get) they’d reduce it to 169.5.

You HAVE to consider enemy MR and armor when you build your damage dealers. If they have 100 MR they are cutting your AP and damage in HALF. So for that heimer his 1385 ap is more like 692.5 ap =(.

What is he giving up to get it too? Think about it.
1) He has no boots, so his massive amount of ap cannot even chase people to kill them
2) He has ZERO survivability. The point of being a damage dealer is to deal damage. A dead damage dealer deals no damage. Items like zhonya’s hourglass, Rylai’s scepter and Abyssal scepter all increase his survivability AND damage AND it allows him to contribute more meaningfully to the team. Seriously one lucky stun and you are gibbed. There is no margin for error. You can try to rationalize that you should play safe which is all well and fine, but realistically with no boots, health or damage reduction you are GOING to die very easily and people WILL focus you.
3) He has not item-based utility to bring to teamfights. If he had purchased a rylais he could slow people kill targets down or help protect teammates being chased. If he had zhonyas hourglass he could soak up some damage and then ruin their focus by going invulnerable while his team finishes the enemies. If he had abyssal scepter he would bring an AOE MR debuff that increases the effectiveness of his teams magic damage and AP across the board.


Anywho, that’s enough of a wall of text for now. I doubt anyone will read it, but I had to get it off my chest.


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NickDunbar

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Senior Member

01-16-2011

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Karathrow

Senior Member

01-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickDunbar View Post
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care to elaborate sir?


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Heystack

Junior Member

01-16-2011

I see this alot more in lower level play. An Ashe with boots and 5 AD items still dies in one stun in a team fight, players just like seeing those huge 300+ AD/ 500+ AP builds. The best advice I ever recieved was "BUY A DEFENSIVE ITEM." Naturally though, "check out how much damage my [insert ap spell here] does" is very satisfying for low level players.


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jesuschicken

Member

01-16-2011

alright as my heimer usually get sorcerers boots deathcap and some archangels what else do you thnk could fill the gap of one of my archangels?


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Heystack

Junior Member

01-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesuschicken View Post
alright as my heimer usually get sorcerers boots deathcap and some archangels what else do you thnk could fill the gap of one of my archangels?

Try hourglass or banshees veil. Heimer gets focused, especially with the items you mentioned, so with bveil you can suck up a stun or freeze yourself with hourglass for some survivability.


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Karathrow

Senior Member

01-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesuschicken View Post
alright as my heimer usually get sorcerers boots deathcap and some archangels what else do you thnk could fill the gap of one of my archangels?
Instead of sorc boots if you did merc treads+abyssal you'd have a decent amount of mr and more importantly you'd reduce CC on you by 35%. This immensely reduces the chance to be gibbed during the span of a stun before you can ghost/flash/etc away.

A strong balanced build for heimer would be like

-Archangels
-Merc/Sorc treads (depending on how much MR enemy team has and how much CC enemy team has)
-Abyssal Scepter
-Rylais Crystal Scepter
-Rabadon's deathcap
-Zhonya's Hourglass

So with this build you still have probably around 600+AP but you also gain:
-500 HP
-57 MR (82 if you go with merc treads.)
-50 Armor
-Slow on your spells to help chase, escape or help your teammates do the same.
-You're cutting magic/physical damage taken in half.
-You're nearly cutting CC duration in half, reducing the chance to be gibbed in one combo (also increases effectiveness of healing from support champs on your team)
-AOE MR reduction from abyssal means increased magic damage dealt to enemy team not only from you but your entire team as well as increasing the effectiveness of the ap you already have.
-Zhonya's mitigates physical damage (think tryndamere flying past your team at you, ashe volleys, garen spin/decisive strike, twitch ult, corki AOE, akali E), basically any unavoidable AOE or simply any physical damage dealer that tries to take you out will have that much more work for himself. Not to mention the active means enemies confused and sitting there taking damage not able to lock in the kill. This also enables support champs heal's or shields to cool down so they can heal you up again.


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Tryc

Senior Member

01-16-2011

I see what you tried to say with the Cho'Gath description... But you made a poor comparison by simply adding 100 armor to 2000 HP. Of course one would take more damage if they had 100 more armor and no more/less health than previously having 0 armor.

Stacking health is purely about getting a ton of health. A good tank Cho'Gath as you said, balances out armor/magic resistance/health. A better Cho'Gath gets around 5k health when fully feasted, with 20 stacks of leviathan and warmogs while gaining crit/AP with atma's impaler and magic resist/armor with guardian angel and force of nature. Getting the best out of everything is the way to go.


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Karathrow

Senior Member

01-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryc View Post
I see what you tried to say with the Cho'Gath description... But you made a poor comparison by simply adding 100 armor to 2000 HP. Of course one would take more damage if they had 100 more armor and no more/less health than previously having 0 armor.

Stacking health is purely about getting a ton of health. A good tank Cho'Gath as you said, balances out armor/magic resistance/health. A better Cho'Gath gets around 5k health when fully feasted, with 20 stacks of leviathan and warmogs while gaining crit/AP with atma's impaler and magic resist/armor with guardian angel and force of nature. Getting the best out of everything is the way to go.
Perhaps my comparison was not well formed but the point is that if you naturally get something from your character, then you should look elsewhere for stats to stack.

Regardless if you do the math on effective health the point stands. With your base armor and MR, its more important for cho to prioritize more MR and some armor due to naturally high health. More armor and MR will drastically increase your effective health moreso than actual hp stacking would.

5k hp is nice, but I dont see how you can really get it without giving up something more important like utility, armor/mr or even damage.


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eric the blue

Senior Member

01-16-2011

i once saw a Karthus player who had 4 Archangel staffs and 2 Zonya's rings, giving him about 2000 ap-but the lack of defence items was his doom: Evelyn took him down in 1 second!

one of my favorite tactics is to get one angel staff, then get some items that improve max mp AND armor or resist, like frozen heart or Banshee's veil. add Sorcerer boots and it's quite effective. i do this with Annie and Ryze.


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