[Guide] Sivir the Battle Mistress - A Comprehensive Guide

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SkullMasteRgR

Member

01-19-2011

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Sivir may be tagged as a carry, but I'd like to think of her as a carry in the sense that she can take out turrets and inhibitors to indirectly win the game
lol, taking out turrets is the ONLY way to win games in lol and killing enemy champs is the "indirect" aproach..


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-19-2011

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Originally Posted by Posmo View Post
not to tread off topic. but what are your mains? and have you written guides for them?
I main Sivir, Janna, Rammus, Gragas, Ashe, and Heimerdinger. If you’re looking for a guide on Janna I highly recommend Zirun’s guide. That’s the one that I follow for the most part, with some variations. As for the others, I can’t really recommend a guide as I never really used one consistently when learning them.

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Originally Posted by rawpower405 View Post
I'm including the results of math for several different builds.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4936/sivir.png

1) These were done before the changes to Black Cleaver.
2) These were done before the changes to Ricochet.
3) These assume all targets have 100 armor.
4) The reason there is a gold/2 seconds efficiency is because Black Cleaver took 5 attacks to get maximum damage. Each attack increases the damage out put.
5) The Blue line represents the Total Damage Per Second you put out to all targets.
6) The Green line represents the Total DAMAGE you put out to all targets after 2 seconds.
7) The gold line is the gold efficiency of Total Damage. This simply how much gold you spent per 1 attack damage inclusive of Ricochet and mitigated by armor.

A) Notice Atmas+Warmogs is the least effeicient build and has the lowest DPS.
B) Obviously Sword of the Occult will provide the most gold efficient build.
C) Skipping both Chalice and Manamune and instead utilizing mp5/lvl blues and yellows provides the most optimal damage output (This is the 12k Budget build).
D) Sword of the Divine is wicked amazing on Sivir.
E) Yes Sivir farms like crazy, HOWEVER, you will most likely still not finish that 16k build since the rest of your team sucks/you have no jungler/you have no tank/you have a leaver/you have a feeder/etc.

If you have any questions about my analysis, I will answer them when I can.
Your math is likely correct, but the numbers you feed into it are quite biased and unrealistic for the following reasons:

1) As you already pointed out, the calculations are out of date.
2) You're assuming fully stacked Sword of Occult (or at least it seems that way), which is rather unlikely
3) There's a HUGE difference in the amount of gold spent between builds, creating a very big disparity.
4) 100 armor is not a realistic point of comparison, because it is unlikely for any champion to sit at 100 armor. If a non-tank champion builds any armor at all they'll likely put on either Guardian Angel or Thornmail. since typically have about 75 Armor base, it would be more realistic to base the calculations either on 75 armor, or on 75, 143, and 175.
5) You are considering only damage in the calculation, while there are other factors such as survivability. The Warmog build was never meant to out-DPS a Blood Thirster build. It was meant to provide additional survivability at a comparatively low cost to DPS.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

01-19-2011

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Originally Posted by SkullMasteRgR View Post
lol, taking out turrets is the ONLY way to win games in lol and killing enemy champs is the "indirect" aproach..
I know, right? I hate those KDA -ratio nubs who think they're winning the game solo when others are taking down turrets and doing the real work.


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SkullMasteRgR

Member

01-19-2011

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I know, right? I hate those KDA -ratio nubs who think they're winning the game solo when others are taking down turrets and doing the real work.
correct so in my opinion champs like sivir that can PUSH even 3 turrets solo in about 3 mins (with the right team support distracting the enemy team) are the real carries cuz they really can make the diference and win you games. i played a game once when an enemy eve had like 21-4-... and we won because we were more organized and pushed turrets.. late game she was stuck in base defending all the time.:P


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-19-2011

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Originally Posted by SkullMasteRgR View Post
correct so in my opinion champs like sivir that can PUSH even 3 turrets solo in about 3 mins (with the right team support distracting the enemy team) are the real carries cuz they really can make the diference and win you games. i played a game once when an enemy eve had like 21-4-... and we won because we were more organized and pushed turrets.. late game she was stuck in base defending all the time.:P
What do you define as a real carry? Sivir has the highest DPS of just about any ranged AD between her huge farming for getting big ticket items sooner, her high base attack speed, and her team steroid. It's true that she drops turrets faster than a lot of other ranged AD, but her presence in a team fight is just as huge.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

01-19-2011

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Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
First of all, I run dodge seals because dodge synergizes well with Sivir’s passive, and it is a difficult stat to itemize. Only Ninja Tabis have it, and I prefer Berserker Greaves over those, since attack speed is also difficult to itemize.

Second of all, just because you fast cleared the wave of minions does not mean you have to follow it in at early levels. In those early levels it is unlikely for the enemy laner to tank the minions. Instead they will fall back to their turret and let it tank the hits. This gives you several advantage.
- Your minions will do damage to the turret
- Your laning opponent will have to compete with the turret for minion kills
- You have time to leave your lane to shop or jungle

Yes it’s especially useful against AP opponents, but really it’s useful no matter who you lane with, as that unlimited mana pool goes a long way to constantly harassing them.
A little late to respond to this, but:

Thanks for clarifying the reasoning. I personally don't agree with it, but this may be because my double mana regen rune set and the mastery cover me enough that I can be aggressive from lvl 5 onward. Or perhaps I just don't have the necessary aggression to make it work.

I personally would rather skip the chalice (and the manamune...why do people get that on Sivir anyway?) and go straight for a bloodthirster, unless I was having difficulty with my lane. If I was, then I might value a chalice more due to being able to farm in safety with spammed boomerang throws.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

01-19-2011

I define carry that will have game-changing (like directly move your team closer to victory) effect.

Carries are usually auto attackers because they scale very well with items to dish out consistent damage that can tear town turrets and usually wreck face in team fights.

Most people don't realize it, but Sivir does wreck face in team fights. The AoE damage is just hard to notice because it's spread out.

From the Wiki:
Champions that generally start off weaker than other champions, but become gradually powerful as they gain levels and items to the point where they can potentially take on multiple champions by themselves. Most carries have skills, passive or active, that scale with their stats, such as an increase in Base Damage and Attack Speed, and rely mostly on their regular attack to dish out damage. Carry champions are extremely effective late-game at pushing the team to victory, either by killing off key players on the enemy team, controlling elements of gameplay, deal large damage in team fights or supporting the team in attacking.

Sivir
"Controls elements of gameplay" - late game, she can effectively push all 3 lanes by herself while your allies complete other objectives. As well as destroy towers quickly.

"Deal large damage in team fights" - BB is still a nice nuke any way you slice it, especially since it scales with your AD. And Richochet is AoE right there. This also goes towards controlling team fights, forcing your opponents to spread out to avoid BB line-ups and Richochet bounces.

"Supports the team in attacking" - On the Hunt. Nuff said.

"Has skills that scale with Base Damage and Attack speed" - O...hai! It's Ricochet and BB! More AS and more AD means more Rico-rape! BB also scales off AD as well...75% for that matter, better than most AD/AP ratios.


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SkullMasteRgR

Member

01-20-2011

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What do you define as a real carry? Sivir has the highest DPS of just about any ranged AD between her huge farming for getting big ticket items sooner, her high base attack speed, and her team steroid. It's true that she drops turrets faster than a lot of other ranged AD, but her presence in a team fight is just as huge.
carry is a champ that can "carry" a team to victory when noone else can.
carries typically dominate late game when they have their core items. (see tryn)
so as u state in ur guide, when sivir gets the big items, this is when she is gonna dish the real dmg, against turrets or in teamfights.
having in mind that killing turets is the way to win matches, every champ that is a good pusher can be called a carry.
champs that are tagged "assasin" that are usualy considered to be carries, they are killer champs meaning that they win games by killing fast the enemy team and THEN pushing turrets.
so these assasin type carries are indirectly winning games whereas pusher champs like sivir can carry a team and win even if the team score is 30-10.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-20-2011

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Youíre talking about establishing lane control in the first 4 levels in a mirror match because you have 40 extra life and 10 extra damage?
Not only a mirror match, but any matchup tbh.

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Who are you kidding? Even with your slight early stat advantage, if you cross the creep line to try and harass me, Iíll stand my ground and likely kill you. The creeps on my side targeting you will make sure of it.
Lol. Passive much?

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I think you misunderstand. If you spend any extended period of time on my side of the creep line I have no issues engaging you despite my slightly lower stats. Iíll win just because the creeps will focus you.
You put a lot of emphasis on the creeps attacking me, despite the fact that they have limited proximity for attack detection and they drop aggro rather quickly. It sounds like you have mediocre experience with solomid.

Honestly on Tristana I would probably just autoattack you into your tower at level 1.

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Last hitting with the Boomerang Blade is merely for catching those extra creeps I would have missed otherwise because of your pathetic attempt to zone.
Maybe I should do it with Kennen.

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Once again, 40 life and 10 extra damage is not nearly enough to zone a mirror match at level 1-4.
By 40 life, you mean 100 life, and 8 extra damage. Do you even know the stats on a Doran's Blade? Can you even follow this discussion competently?

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I had to chuckle at this one. Usually people will make idiotic comments about how itís impossible to hit people with Boomerang Blade, and here you are arguing how impossible it is to miss. :P
It's impossible to miss when I run into the BB with spell shield. No ****? Especially when your BBs will be relatively predictable against my level of aggression.

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This is complete back tracking on your earlier statement. Youíre not going to kill me before level 5 doing something like this.
I don't have to kill you. I just have to create a scenario where I have a greater capacity to kill, rendering your only option to turtle at your tower. Newbies focus on killing too much. The real game is the threat of killing. Only idiots actually die. Losers are the ones that are threatened with death and then lose their lane/tower/farm/mapcontrol because of it.

I'd much rather have you floating at low HP getting scraps of XP, rather than killing you while you hit the fountain and come back with another item and full HP/mana.

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Whoís assuming the opponent is stupid now? Why in the world would I run around the creep line to your side to engage you when you are already trying to come to my side to engage me?
It's your only option to avoid being zoned and avoid dying. If you run straight back, you are zoned. If you do not run away, you die. If you pull back slightly to attempt to get me caught in your creep lane, I step to the side and get 1, maybe 2 creeps of aggro (oh no!).

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If the early game is the most entertaining part of LoL for you then Sivir really isnít the champ for you.
Sivir is a fun champ because the last 80% of the game I can feed and suicide 10+ times and still win the game, because Sivir can lolautoattack to victory. I think feeding 14 times was my limit for still carrying the team to victory.

The other fun part of Sivir is reflexively spell blocking various spells. Those are about the only 2 really entertaining things about playing Sivir.

I don't particularly see a reason why I should play a strong early game champ if I like the early game. That makes the early game way too easy / fun, then I feel like I should go afk for the rest of the game. Shrug, I played Sivir the most when we had double IP weekend and I had a good incentive to win 90% of my games, which I did. Since then, only from time to time.

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There are much better for controlling the early game than Sivir. Sheís a mid-late game carry. Besides, the real fun is in the mid-late game when team fights break out.
Not really. Team fights are generally an exercise in watching my team do completely ******ed things, and me not willing to carry them and/or make them play competently. That and waiting with thumbs up our asses for our ***** tank to initiate or otherwise do something useful, etc. Usually on vent with my friend laughing at how <insert idiot> is about to die in 6 seconds. Or, "omg I bet he didn't even see <insert enemy> despite the fact that we warded". Or "LOL I had to ping 14 times for the ****** on our team to notice he had an inc from the jungle".

Early game is honestly much more entertaining.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

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Lol. Passive much?
Yea, passive for about 4 minutes of the game. Big deal?

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You put a lot of emphasis on the creeps attacking me, despite the fact that they have limited proximity for attack detection and they drop aggro rather quickly. It sounds like you have mediocre experience with solomid.
You make it sound like Sivir has such amazing range. She doesn’t. It’s not difficult to get them to agro you, and if you leave your position to drop the agro, then you’re not harassing me anymore, are you? And let’s remember this is level 1-4, you’re not bursting.

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Honestly on Tristana I would probably just autoattack you into your tower at level 1.
Tristana isn’t a matchup I have trouble with ever. So unless you want to expand on what you’re talking about, I can’t really expand on this.

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Maybe I should do it with Kennen.
Kennen is even more of a reason to take the Meki and go for an early Chalice. After all, He’s AP. Again I don’t understand where you’re going with this.

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By 40 life, you mean 100 life, and 8 extra damage. Do you even know the stats on a Doran's Blade? Can you even follow this discussion competently?
I’m running 0/21/9 masteries on Sivir, and from your emphasis on the early game it’s pretty safe to assume that you are likely running something ******ed like 21/0/9. If that’s the case, I have 60 life from Masteries that you don’t making your life advantage a measly 40.

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It's impossible to miss when I run into the BB with spell shield. No ****? Especially when your BBs will be relatively predictable against my level of aggression
Again this made me chuckle. So now not only are you focusing on zoning me out with a champ that has the exact same range and skill set, but you’re also focusing on running into my projectile. It really sounds to me like you’d be the one who’s more harassed.

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I don't have to kill you. I just have to create a scenario where I have a greater capacity to kill, rendering your only option to turtle at your tower. Newbies focus on killing too much. The real game is the threat of killing. Only idiots actually die. Losers are the ones that are threatened with death and then lose their lane/tower/farm/mapcontrol because of it.
I'd much rather have you floating at low HP getting scraps of XP, rather than killing you while you hit the fountain and come back with another item and full HP/mana.
You’re the one who brought up the concept of going for kills. If you recall, I intend to play passively for the first 4 levels while I farm up for Chalice, and then use the superior sustainability to take control of the lane. I merely stated that in the event you do something stupid like cross the creep line to attack me, that I will take advantage of that and kill you.

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It's your only option to avoid being zoned and avoid dying. If you run straight back, you are zoned. If you do not run away, you die. If you pull back slightly to attempt to get me caught in your creep lane, I step to the side and get 1, maybe 2 creeps of aggro (oh no!).
First off, two shots of creep agro is quite a bit at level 1. Second of all, that’s also two shots of mine that you’ll be taking while you “step to the side a bit” which more than makes up for the 8 more damage you do, and the extra 40 life you have. As I said, if you become overly aggressive and cross the creep line to try and harass me, I have no problem standing my ground and picking a fight. There’s a very good chance I’ll win, and even in the case that it seems I might lose, I have a much better path to escape than you do in the same scenario.

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Sivir is a fun champ because the last 80% of the game I can feed and suicide 10+ times and still win the game, because Sivir can lolautoattack to victory. I think feeding 14 times was my limit for still carrying the team to victory.
Well, I agree with you being a feeder part. The play style you advocate is filled with stupid assumptions that are likely to get you killed often.

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Not really. Team fights are generally an exercise in watching my team do completely ******ed things, and me not willing to carry them and/or make them play competently. That and waiting with thumbs up our asses for our ***** tank to initiate or otherwise do something useful, etc. Usually on vent with my friend laughing at how <insert idiot> is about to die in 6 seconds. Or, "omg I bet he didn't even see <insert enemy> despite the fact that we warded". Or "LOL I had to ping 14 times for the ****** on our team to notice he had an inc from the jungle".
Except you just said you’re the idiot who keeps suiciding and feeding. Those must be quotes that people said about you?

By the way, I do appreciate the discussion and all the bumps you've been giving my guide. I'm sure it helps to really give it some extra depth with this debate on Doran vs Meki start. Thanks!