[Guide] Sivir the Battle Mistress - A Comprehensive Guide

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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-19-2011

You're basically looking at it incorrectly as a sustained damage endeavor. You're missing the entire concept of aggression and controlling the lane. The additional +HP and +AD are critical to that.

Your strategy focuses on optimizing level 5 performance. Where is your level 1 and 2 performance? Can you successfully turtle at a disadvantage for the first 1-4 levels until you gain some level of real threat? What kind of sorry ass passive piece of **** opponent are you facing?

Etc.

With a Doran Blade, I will typically attack an opponent Sivir using Ghost and getting around 5 hits in along with one tick of BB. I will burn enough HP to use a heal pot, and the opponent Sivir will typically lose 250+ hp. Note that this is at level 1. At level 1.3, I will run up and attack again. Even if the Sivir has chugged an HP pot, they will only have ~300 hp using your build (which is a competent mastery spec, as a terribad Sivir would have <500 max hp, and would have 200-250 hp at this time, rendering them very weak and pretty much retreating 100% of the time).

They will also notice that I'm wrecking them in per-hit damage, since I have flat AD runes and hit for 78 damage minus armor at level 1. If they are running AS, they hit for 5x damage minus armor at level 1. If they are running ArP, they hit for 5x damage unreduced.

As a result, they will be on the retreat every skirmish, because they know I'm out-damaging them by a significant margin. This means they have lost control of the lane, netting fewer last hits.

You need to learn the difference between sustainability and capacity. Capacity is HP. Sustainability is regen. Doran's Blade provides strong raw capacity at level 1, and minor sustainability.

A Meki pendant + 2x hp pot provides moderate sustainability.

Strong sustainability has an advantage when you can throttle the output of both teams and turn the situation into a sustained fight. If you are laning versus Janna for example, her skillset automatically makes it a sustained fight.

If you can skirmish the enemy and then NOT be in any danger of dying, then having superior regen can be effective. However, in a level 1-3 contest of controlling the lane, this is not the case. Regen is something that helps you control the lane over the course of the first 10 levels (for solo lane XP span of time).


Not to be a complete ****** or anything, but your logic reeks of poor opponents in mid-elo. "I have more regen la~" No one gives a **** if they're slamming you the first 4 levels. Do you think you can afford a Chalice on your first base if they push you away from creeps?


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FaerellG

Senior Member

01-19-2011

Such early game aggression is likely to draw too much minion aggro, at levels 1-3 minion damage is actually pretty scary. I've killed over aggressive opponents with minion damage before. Rather than attack them back directly, I quickly wipe out their next wave of minions and when they harass, they find 6 caster minions pelting them.

Of course this is a "flow of battle" thing and if you pick the right time to harass, then you should be ok. However, the meki start has more lane sustainability than the doran's build due to mana regen, thus you can cast BB more often, and thus you clear minion waves faster, and thus you're allowed to harass earlier.

Positioning is also important. Sivir vs Sivir, I rarely am within auto attack range, and the BB situation usually requires chugging through minions to target her, lessening the minion damage...because again, you don't want to harass too hard when they have more minions than you.at level 1-3. There's also the issue of spell shield. I'd rather not harass and juke their spell shield a bit.

The final issue is that BB and sivir's auto attack do pretty crappy damage at early levels. BB doesn't really become powerful until level 5 (rank 3), and her auto attacks don't become truly effective until after your first BFsword or first recurve bow.

Thus for levels 1-3 I don't really bother with the harass. Sure, if I can line up the minion wave AND my opponent, I'll do it, but the damage is **** (especially after hitting minions first). Level 5, I'll start trying to land some direct BB hits.

Admittedly, this all comes down to playstyle. I just don't believe that Sivir's damage output at levels 1-3 are worthwhile enough to warrant early aggression like what you're saying. I'll give it a shot in a game some time. The last time I tried the Doran's opening, it was as a total nub.

Edit:
I'm thinking about this again. I suppose if you pack Ignite and lots of offensive masteries, you could probably burst down a lot more and negate the effectiveness of mid-combat potions. I still don't think ignite is worthwhile on sivir though. I prefer my flash/teleport.


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TLtitan

Member

01-19-2011

chalice is the worst item ever i take manamune over it everytimee. but really u can just skip that and get bloodthirster


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
You're basically looking at it incorrectly as a sustained damage endeavor. You're missing the entire concept of aggression and controlling the lane. The additional +HP and +AD are critical to that.

Your strategy focuses on optimizing level 5 performance. Where is your level 1 and 2 performance? Can you successfully turtle at a disadvantage for the first 1-4 levels until you gain some level of real threat? What kind of sorry ass passive piece of **** opponent are you facing?

Etc.

With a Doran Blade, I will typically attack an opponent Sivir using Ghost and getting around 5 hits in along with one tick of BB. I will burn enough HP to use a heal pot, and the opponent Sivir will typically lose 250+ hp. Note that this is at level 1. At level 1.3, I will run up and attack again. Even if the Sivir has chugged an HP pot, they will only have ~300 hp using your build (which is a competent mastery spec, as a terribad Sivir would have <500 max hp, and would have 200-250 hp at this time, rendering them very weak and pretty much retreating 100% of the time).

They will also notice that I'm wrecking them in per-hit damage, since I have flat AD runes and hit for 78 damage minus armor at level 1. If they are running AS, they hit for 5x damage minus armor at level 1. If they are running ArP, they hit for 5x damage unreduced.

As a result, they will be on the retreat every skirmish, because they know I'm out-damaging them by a significant margin. This means they have lost control of the lane, netting fewer last hits.

You need to learn the difference between sustainability and capacity. Capacity is HP. Sustainability is regen. Doran's Blade provides strong raw capacity at level 1, and minor sustainability.

A Meki pendant + 2x hp pot provides moderate sustainability.

Strong sustainability has an advantage when you can throttle the output of both teams and turn the situation into a sustained fight. If you are laning versus Janna for example, her skillset automatically makes it a sustained fight.

If you can skirmish the enemy and then NOT be in any danger of dying, then having superior regen can be effective. However, in a level 1-3 contest of controlling the lane, this is not the case. Regen is something that helps you control the lane over the course of the first 10 levels (for solo lane XP span of time).


Not to be a complete ****** or anything, but your logic reeks of poor opponents in mid-elo. "I have more regen la~" No one gives a **** if they're slamming you the first 4 levels. Do you think you can afford a Chalice on your first base if they push you away from creeps?
As FaerellG suggested, it's not difficult to play defensively in the first 3 or 4 levels while you build up to Chalice. It's true that because you're running AD runes while I'm running AS runes, in a 1v1 fight I'd be forced to retreat. But what if I'm standing just far enough behind my minions to still receive EXP while last hitting with Boomerang Blade, since you know, I have the mana regen to pull that off? That means you either A) Run through my minions and basically have to fight me with all my minions attacking you, resulting in quite a bit of damage at those levels, or B) kill my minions first and push my lane to the turret where you can't harass me with your extra 20 AD. In the first scenario, I would definitely stay and try to kill you, since I'd be safe from your minions but you wouldn't be from mine. Logically I would have the advantage. since for me to retreat I'd have a clear path to my turret. But for you, retreat would mean running through my minions. In the second scenario, I'd be trading missing a few last hits for 3 or 4 levels for a laning advantage the rest of the laning phase. It seems quite a worthwhile trade for me.

As for AS vs AD runes, you're right in that AD gives a bigger boost at level 1. However, AS is a multiplicative factor, and one which you likely don't get much of later on. By level 10 or so, when your natural attack speed has risen fairly and you've built a damage item or two, AS provides greater DPS than AD, even if your AD runes are scaling.

Edit: It's pretty funny that you comment on bad opponents in mid elo when you're mid elo yourself. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLtitan View Post
chalice is the worst item ever i take manamune over it everytimee. but really u can just skip that and get bloodthirster
This is a pretty ignorant comment, especially since you don't back it up with your reasoning at all.


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bylobog44

Senior Member

01-19-2011

On your Tear or the Goddess versus Chalice economics, have you factored in return trips to the shop? The extra 350 mana that is regenerated each time you return to buy items (IMO) is superior to the marginally better MP/5 regen provided by chalice. This is most valuable in the early game where mana is the most critical resource.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bylobog44 View Post
On your Tear or the Goddess versus Chalice economics, have you factored in return trips to the shop? The extra 350 mana that is regenerated each time you return to buy items (IMO) is superior to the marginally better MP/5 regen provided by chalice. This is most valuable in the early game where mana is the most critical resource.
In the vast majority of the games I've played using this build, I'll return to the shop at about 1000 gold to purchase Chalice + Boots (1), and 2 wards. From that point on I usually won't be back to the shop until I've got 1850 for my first B.F. Sword.

However, even if you consider frequent trips back to town to shop/regen mana, where that 350 max mana can be regenerated, it doesn't bring you to the same effectiveness accomplished by Chalice, which is basically a bottomless manapool. It approaches that as your trip-to-town frequency increases, but at the same time, a high trip-to-town frequency also means you're gaining less EXP and less gold.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-19-2011

Quote:
However, the meki start has more lane sustainability than the doran's build due to mana regen, thus you can cast BB more often, and thus you clear minion waves faster, and thus you're allowed to harass earlier.
Lane sustainability != lane control. End of story.

Quote:
As FaerellG suggested, it's not difficult to play defensively in the first 3 or 4 levels while you build up to Chalice.
If you are playing "defensively" while I am kicking your face in, then you get half my farm. I could even zone your XP or force an early base, which may ruin your Chalice timing if I get lucky.

Quote:
But what if I'm standing just far enough behind my minions to still receive EXP while last hitting with Boomerang Blade, since you know, I have the mana regen to pull that off?
1. How much $$$ do you realistically expect to get with last hitting only with BB? Two creeps per wave? While I net 5?

2. How are you close enough to receive XP if I zone you to your tower?

3. How much mana are you feeding me through spell shield if you are using BB to lasthit creeps? This is only a Sivir vs. Sivir consideration, but /shrug.

Quote:
That means you either A) Run through my minions and basically have to fight me with all my minions attacking you, resulting in quite a bit of damage at those levels, or B) kill my minions first and push my lane to the turret where you can't harass me with your extra 20 AD.
Or C, run to the side, get 2 hits off, and disengage to drop minion aggro. There are also zones behind the minion line where they do not pick up aggro depending on your proximity to the creeps.

This is all academic tbh. You'll attempt to circle around the opposite side, keeping your creeps near me, whereupon I simply follow you to that position and force a full engagement, since you're now cut off from your tower, and I have more capacity. If you full-on retreat, then I get a ridiculous number of free hits. If you engage, we have even creep aggro and I have more capacity, end of story.

Quote:
However, AS is a multiplicative factor, and one which you likely don't get much of later on. By level 10 or so, when your natural attack speed has risen fairly and you've built a damage item or two, AS provides greater DPS than AD, even if your AD runes are scaling.
Generally speaking, runes don't make much of a difference at mid and late levels due to their small weight versus the amount of gear you're packing. For Sivir this is doubly true due to the rate of gear acquisition. Also, the relevance of AS runes is strongly diminished by her ult and Berserker Greaves. At the end of the day, AS runes are mediocre at best. AD runes are similarly bad mid-endgame when you compare the paltry AD versus 10,000 AD from 26 Bloodthirsters. However, the runes are an early-game play.

Quote:
Edit: It's pretty funny that you comment on bad opponents in mid elo when you're mid elo yourself. :P
I'm 100% confident that my 14xx elo in Ranked is a result of me running around doing useless / stupid things after 8 minutes into the game, because the early game is the most entertaining part of LoL.


-----

Sidenote: as far as the Chalice vs. Manamune discussion, the Chalice is superior due to its quicker acquisition time and extra MR. Manamune is solid if you are going for a BV.

Manamune is "ok" if you are going for a Warmog due to the timing of item acquisition (Manamune provides midgame AD while you sink several k into the Warmog; a Chalice provides no midgame AD, and a Chalice + BFS costs more than Just A Manamune).

Inherently, a Manamune isn't bad. A Chalice is just better if you're aiming to pump up your damage quickly.


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Posmo

Member

01-19-2011

not to tread off topic. but what are your mains? and have you written guides for them?


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Lane sustainability != lane control. End of story.
If you are playing "defensively" while I am kicking your face in, then you get half my farm. I could even zone your XP or force an early base, which may ruin your Chalice timing if I get lucky.
Youíre talking about establishing lane control in the first 4 levels in a mirror match because you have 40 extra life and 10 extra damage? Who are you kidding? Even with your slight early stat advantage, if you cross the creep line to try and harass me, Iíll stand my ground and likely kill you. The creeps on my side targeting you will make sure of it.
Quote:
1. How much $$$ do you realistically expect to get with last hitting only with BB? Two creeps per wave? While I net 5?
I think you misunderstand. If you spend any extended period of time on my side of the creep line I have no issues engaging you despite my slightly lower stats. Iíll win just because the creeps will focus you. Last hitting with the Boomerang Blade is merely for catching those extra creeps I would have missed otherwise because of your pathetic attempt to zone.

Quote:
2. How are you close enough to receive XP if I zone you to your tower?
Once again, 40 life and 10 extra damage is not nearly enough to zone a mirror match at level 1-4. You will lose the fight simply because my minions will focus you and yours wonít focus me. Itís really that simple. And before you pop in and say you'd kill my minions off quickly first, Iíll point out right now that you canít ďzoneĒ someone if youíre killing off their minions quickly. That would be pushing, not zoning.

Quote:
3. How much mana are you feeding me through spell shield if you are using BB to lasthit creeps? This is only a Sivir vs. Sivir consideration, but /shrug.
I had to chuckle at this one. Usually people will make idiotic comments about how itís impossible to hit people with Boomerang Blade, and here you are arguing how impossible it is to miss. :P

Quote:
Or C, run to the side, get 2 hits off, and disengage to drop minion aggro. There are also zones behind the minion line where they do not pick up aggro depending on your proximity to the creeps.
This is complete back tracking on your earlier statement. Youíre not going to kill me before level 5 doing something like this. In fact, youíre more likely to die because Iíve got 2 health potions to your 1. I do admit, this was another funny comment.

Quote:
This is all academic tbh. You'll attempt to circle around the opposite side, keeping your creeps near me, whereupon I simply follow you to that position and force a full engagement, since you're now cut off from your tower, and I have more capacity. If you full-on retreat, then I get a ridiculous number of free hits. If you engage, we have even creep aggro and I have more capacity, end of story.
Whoís assuming the opponent is stupid now? Why in the world would I run around the creep line to your side to engage you when you are already trying to come to my side to engage me? That makes little sense. A small life advantage on your part is not going to deter me from attacking you when you come to my end of the creep line.

Quote:
Generally speaking, runes don't make much of a difference at mid and late levels due to their small weight versus the amount of gear you're packing. For Sivir this is doubly true due to the rate of gear acquisition. Also, the relevance of AS runes is strongly diminished by her ult and Berserker Greaves. At the end of the day, AS runes are mediocre at best. AD runes are similarly bad mid-endgame when you compare the paltry AD versus 10,000 AD from 26 Bloodthirsters. However, the runes are an early-game play.
As Iíve said numerous times in this thread, Attack Speed runes are the runes of choice for Sivir because of the lack of availability of completely useful attack speed items. Attack Speed Runes + Berserker Greaves puts her attack speed at 1.6 standard, 2.3 during On the Hunt duration. That means the attack speed is not diminished by her ult, because she does not reach the cap. In fact, the more damage you build on her (and you should be building lots of damage), the greater the discrepancy between the effectiveness of attack speed and attack damage.

I believe at level 18 with no masteries or other runes, the DPS of attack speed breaks even with the DPS of Attack Damage/level (notice Iím doing the calculation here at level 18 to give dmg/level itís full effect, despite the fact that attack speed is just as effective at level 1 as it is at level 18) after your first Blood Thirster. That means every damage item after that tilts the scale further towards attack speed. You donít have to take my word for it though.
If we look at the effectiveness of the runes at level 1 instead, we see that attack damage runes/level result in 57 damage, at an attack speed of .713, or a DPS of 40.6. On the other hand, attack speed runes result in 55 damage, at a speed of .886, or a DPS of 48! Imagine that. With attack speed runes youíd actually do MORE damage per second when you rush in to try and ďzone meĒ than with your attack damage runes, not that it would work even if you were smart enough to switch to attack speed runes.

Quote:
I'm 100% confident that my 14xx elo in Ranked is a result of me running around doing useless / stupid things after 8 minutes into the game, because the early game is the most entertaining part of LoL.
If the early game is the most entertaining part of LoL for you then Sivir really isnít the champ for you. There are much better for controlling the early game than Sivir. Sheís a mid-late game carry. Besides, the real fun is in the mid-late game when team fights break out. The laning phase is basically just about getting to that point in the best condition relative to your opponents as possible.


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rawpower405

Senior Member

01-19-2011

I'm including the results of math for several different builds.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4936/sivir.png

1) These were done before the changes to Black Cleaver.
2) These were done before the changes to Ricochet.
3) These assume all targets have 100 armor.
4) The reason there is a gold/2 seconds efficiency is because Black Cleaver took 5 attacks to get maximum damage. Each attack increases the damage out put.
5) The Blue line represents the Total Damage Per Second you put out to all targets.
6) The Green line represents the Total DAMAGE you put out to all targets after 2 seconds.
7) The gold line is the gold efficiency of Total Damage. This simply how much gold you spent per 1 attack damage inclusive of Ricochet and mitigated by armor.

A) Notice Atmas+Warmogs is the least effeicient build and has the lowest DPS.
B) Obviously Sword of the Occult will provide the most gold efficient build.
C) Skipping both Chalice and Manamune and instead utilizing mp5/lvl blues and yellows provides the most optimal damage output (This is the 12k Budget build).
D) Sword of the Divine is wicked amazing on Sivir.
E) Yes Sivir farms like crazy, HOWEVER, you will most likely still not finish that 16k build since the rest of your team sucks/you have no jungler/you have no tank/you have a leaver/you have a feeder/etc.

If you have any questions about my analysis, I will answer them when I can.