How to "deny" in LoL

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IMSavior

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Senior Member

01-08-2010

there is a difference between lane control and denying

even if the overall effect is the same, lane control is a lot harder then denying


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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by sAviOrZelda View Post
there is a difference between lane control and denying

even if the overall effect is the same, lane control is a lot harder then denying
True in that sense. But lets not turn this thread into that kind of debate. Let's work with what we have and continue to work on ideas for current ways to deny in the normal sense, not the DOTA sense of the word.

For instance. Jungling. If you know their team has a jungler, kill all but one of their spawns when you get the chance. Especially lizard or golem, keeps them from respawning and make sure *not* to do that for your side.


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Exantius

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Member

01-08-2010

In LoL, there's really only a huge difference in last hits (gold generation) if the lane control of the champions are really different. Champions like Ashe (side lanes) and Twisted Fate can keep opponents from last hitting through pressure.

Denying is different though. Denying allows slight differences in lane control to result in large differences.

If nothing else, recall that denying lowers exp gain as well.


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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exantius View Post
In LoL, there's really only a huge difference in last hits (gold generation) if the lane control of the champions are really different. Champions like Ashe (side lanes) and Twisted Fate can keep opponents from last hitting through pressure.

Denying is different though. Denying allows slight differences in lane control to result in large differences.

If nothing else, recall that denying lowers exp gain as well.
Zone control denies experience too though, not a ton, but you'll level faster.


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Pink Princess Party

Senior Member

01-09-2010

Best Deny Scenario is to keep someone out of the EXP zone and just last hit creeps. Then you fall back let them gain some ground, and then rush them. Most people run when they get rushed. Thats where exhaust/ignite comes into play. Seems like the most common form of denial imo.

Best lane denial combo I've ever been a part of was Janna/Malphite or Janna/Alistar. Alistar last hits the melees. I play janna in between the creeps and their owners chain casting damage buff/damage shield on myself, and casting tornadoes. If you buy nothing but mana pots, you can normally make it to level 6 when their still level 4 and go home and get yourself your boots.


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SaulOrNothing

Senior Member

01-09-2010

Man I love playing soraka simply for her early game effectiveness. I HATE early game, but with soraka I prefer it because you can count the number of characters on one hand that stop her from running them off if she wants to and plays smart. Its great having your opponent standing at their turret watching their creeps die in the middle of the lane and they can do anything about it without taking heavy damage and risking death.


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Ennbeard

Senior Member

01-09-2010

Problem with Raise morale denying is, You're better off using the mana on Parrrley, and using Raise morale to deny will just be a mana sink, won't make that much of a difference to them Roughly one lost last hit per wave), but that's a lot less Parrrleys for you if you're having mana issues early on.


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revolutionknitez

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01-09-2010

There is just no denying, only aggressive playing. Any character can play aggressive, it just really depends which side has the more aggressive players/champion combination. I.e. Ignite may not kill, but it definitely forces players to tower hug early game until they heal.


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DProism

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01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
I see people complain sometimes about lack of denying (from DoTA: killing your own minions to deny them exp/gold) in LoL, well you still can; it has just taken a different form and only certain champs can do it successfully over and over. And since this is more of a team game, it makes sense it would be delegated to certain champs (and take more skill.)

Champs that can deny are champs that are not only good at early lane harassing, but also have some form of defense. Reasoning shortly.

The best champs to do it with: Ashe, Teemo, Soraka, Sivir, Heimerdinger, Twisted Fate, and Karthus (the most difficult).

Champs you can do it with, but tend to need to be up against less skilled opponents than you (and/or have a good laning partner that is in this category or above): Nidalee, Mundo, Anivia, Janna, Fiddlesticks (and probably a few others, this category is looser, and depends more on who you're up against.)

Tactics: Harass them until they fear you and are low enough they move back toward their tower. Should be doable by level 3. Don't hit your creeps except for last hits for the gold. You want to keep the creep fight away from the enemy champs as much as possible. Keep the champs back as much as possible. When your creeps finally do make it to their tower throw a long range shot at them such as TF's wild card (or feint, will work if they're low enough and they fear you enough) so they have to back off and get even less kills.

If you do this properly not only will they miss out on some experience because creeps will die far away from them and tons of KBs on creeps, but they will have to go back to the fountain several times before 6, and/or have to buy more pots and regen items they wouldn't have had to normally. The biggest mistake I see people make when they get an excellent harassing routine down is that they kill the minions even when they're at full health, i.e. they push. You should only be attacking the minions for the last hits for the gold. If the champs are back at the tower, and the enemy minions at full health, just sit there in the bushes and watch the mini map.

The reasoning behind champs: Not only do you need harassing potential, but you need to be able to park yourself between the minions in the center, and the enemy champs and their tower. So you need some sort of defensive potential so you don't die if they decide to break out. Ashe has slows/speed, teemo can blind, soraka can heal, etc.

Champ Strategies
Teemo: either mana regen (health pots) and spam blinding dart (Q) or boots and 1 point in move quick and points in toxic shot for darting in and out to poison them. I much prefer Q w/ mana regen. Having near unlimited darts is awesome. And you'll almost certainly need the blind. Don't bother too much with it till you get your 2nd point in darts. But if you're up against champs that don't have long range attacks to knock you out of move quick you'll be golden and they should never catch you, only have to worry about stray minion aggro. By level 4 I prefer 2 1 1 (skill distribution) with a meki pendant). Pretty much the best of both worlds.

Ashe: Very similar strat to teemo, either mana regen (health pots) for volley spam, or boots to dart in and out. Except I prefer the opposite on Ashe. With her skill to charge up crit chance, and volley not needing much points to be effective. Have fun. Lvl 1 boots is all she needs early on to kite the **** out of most champs. She's usually fast enough to auto attack and retreat before a ranged hero can even retaliate! (Unless their range is greater, experiment, I can't tell you what will work for you, will probably depend a lot on latency).

Soraka: Silence(infuse) and Starcall + auto attack. Not much they can do being silenced. Dart in and out though. Don't stay in range past one star fall volley. Almost any items will work for her. She's not terribly fast in the first place, so try mana regen, you'll want your ability for silence, not wasting it on your mana bar. The key to her is doing this while the other champ is distracted so you don't get retaliation.

Sivir: She can be a bit hard vs good people. Mostly because it will require spamming boomerang blade (if they're close enough to get hit with stray richochets then you're not denying them much.) And since it requires such spam, and its almost impossible without full mana regen runes + meki pendant, you'll need to use spell shield very craftily to get mana back. Vs good people (that feint to get you to use your spell shield early) she can be harder to pull this off with than karthus. However, it depends on the hero makeup, if they're melee, stray richochets may be enough. Only you can make that call, will also depend a lot on your laning partner if you didn't take mid.

Karthus: Priority lay waste, 1 point in wall of pain and defile. Use wall in conjunction with laywaste to hurt them when you get the chance. But make sure your lane partner is with you. Your fragile. If they both focus you, gg. The key to Karthus pulling this off is getting good with hitting them with lay waste. It has a good range and does great damage (does double vs single target). Just don't be as agressive early on levels 1-2. Take it easy, take safe pot shots. Wait till 3 before you really start to target them.

Heimer: Priority micro rockets (except at level 1, still get turrets, save most of your mana till 3, with 2nd point into micro rockets like most of these builds), not much else to say. They auto hit. If you can get enough mana regen to keep the spam up they really hurt and there's almost no counter early game.

Twisted Fate: One of the best. Can start almost right away if your lane partner is competent. Put 1st point in pick a card. Chase people with gold card above your head. 2nd and 3rd go into wild card. Rest is up to you but I'd recommend gate. Go meki pendant + pots.

Note: this is general strategy for getting to level 6 first. Then ganking may take priority. Or you may want to keep them down if the laning phase looks like it may go on longer than normal. You shouldn't need/plan to return to the fountain before level 6-7.

General strategy. By level 3 look for a skill that has good harassing potential and make sure to have a 2nd point in it. Have mana regen and health pots. Make sure to get a point in your slow/defensive type skill as they will almost certainly head back to the fountain and then try to gank you at full health. Be ready to counter this. But by then you should be a level higher, even if you're at 90% health, you should be able to win/push them back. Just remember, its more about gorilla tactics, hit and run, rather than king of the kill, stand and fight. If they need to think they won for a few seconds then let them think that and run back to your tower, let your pots heal you up and start it all over again.

Rest of the champs: They tend to vary too much for me to give advice on. If you really want to ask a question, I suppose I could try to answer.

Disclaimer: Any champs can dominate a lane, this is a guide to deny roughly equal skilled opponents, not a roflstomp. I'm sure there's been a blitzcrank and gangplank duo that have dominated a lane (especially through ganking which is a different but riskier strategy since the gank can be turned around on you), however with these recommended champs it can be a regularity (and more importantly fairly safe) once you get it down.

Q: Why don't I see this more often?
A: Either their lane partner is sucking by pushing, not helping, etc. or they are just being lazy. It takes a lot of work and vigilance to watch 2 champs, the mini map, *and* still get last hits on creeps. OR they just don't know about it; it seems to be in everyone's head that its impossible to "deny" anyone anything.
the easiest hero to deny with isnt even on this list and im not even gonna name it or else my strat is out of the bag


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Destromas

Member

01-10-2010

if you're not killing your own creeps to reduce the benefit they give to the enemy it's not denying.

if you're keeping the enemy out of the range of the creeps, it's not denying.

that would make jungling denying, fountain healing denying, tower hugging denying, and forcing 5v5 team fights denying.

i'm not interested in changing the new age lingo, you annoying guy that rides a harley.


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