"Flow" is what Riot developers should be providing

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cIedus

Senior Member

01-11-2011

I know xperoussy(or whatever his name is) has mentioned flow of experience quite a bit. He seems to have that be a priority in his designing. I could be wrong about the priority, but I know he is aware of it and is favorable to it. Can't remember the post but he wrote this big long post about how it was important.


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MathMage

Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
Indirectly, in the anti-fun pattern. It is stated as "burden of knowledge".
Burden of knowledge has only the most distant shouting relationship with challenge of gameplay. The term 'flow' that you describe is fulfilled by a good matchmaking system, not unintuitive mechanics where the player can't tell what killed them.


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dredzach

Senior Member

01-11-2011

I do not assume the designers are oblivious to flow. First of all, flow is common sense, but second I do question the flow provided by this game because too often your level of skill is irrelevant to the outcomes in-game. This is not a challenge. Challenges can be risen to. In this game there is a lot of time where you cannot rise to the challenge because it is out of your hands.

Granted, I do not blame Riot or fault them. It is not possible to have perfect flow. Flow isn't something you achieve it is something you strive toward.

Also, for those of you familiar with this, congrats, but many people aren't, so this is to their benefit.

I think Riot could do a better job with flow. Specifically, I think there needs to be more built-in handicaps to keep a game close.

Example:
Handicap to a winning team is the defending team has towers to help them defend.
Handicap to high-scoring player, is when they die the killer gets extra gold.

These are good things, but it isn't enough. What is the handicap for having a leaver? Feeder?

There are things in this game that cause it to no longer be an even match, and those things are not dealt with in the game. There should be anti-snowballing measures in this game, to keep it even.

There should be better options for counter-strategies, so one team can make a comeback. For example, in Dota if the other team was grouping up a lot doing the whole 5-man gank squad, a common counter-strategy was to farm. The team farming was gaining solo experience and gold steadily while the gank-squad was hoping for a kill. There were stronger trade-offs, and the result was that 5-man fights were not a necessity nor even always a great idea like it is in LoL. This allowed for teams to try different ways of winning. This allowed them to feel like if plan A wasn't working perhaps they could win with plan B. This kept even a losing team feeling like there was flow, feeling like they had a chance to win.


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Stillhart

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Now it just looks like you're using "flow" and "anti-patterns" to complain about the same old stuff. Yawn.


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SciencePrime

Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Nice thing about a pvp game is this tends to happen anyway with good skill selection.

We try to follow the super mario brothers pattern, which is escalating tension with breaks in between, to a finale. It works in drama too.

- Zileas
That's a very interesting way of putting it. Never thought of it that way. I like it!


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Prettyfox

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Recruiter

01-11-2011

I enjoy LoL a lot.


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Fmoof

Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
This post is informative only. I am not trying to persuade, merely to inform and enlighten. In my opinion there is a problem with the level of flow in this game, but my intention is not to push my own subjective view on you.

My point is there is a concept called flow which describes the proper level of challenge for a player, which lies between anxiety and boredom. I believe Riot developers should educate themselves about this concept because they have stated they call challenge "a burden to the player" when in fact it is the source of enjoyment for the player.

Although this is just an introduction to the concept of flow, someone who has a real interest or perhaps a job where it matters (like a Riot developer) might want to read further. Also, this could be useful to many other people.

This is from a college textbook, but that hardly matters. I'm not here to impress anyone, merely to present a new idea that I never heard brought up this way on this forum.

Oh, another thought I had, if you want something to argue about, is that in a landslide league of legends game, no one has fun because the losers experience anxiety and the winners experience boredom. Neither experiences "flow".
The issue with trying to keep this concept in mind while making a multiplayer game is an extreme difference in skill levels. Even at the Same elo rating different players are better at different things. I for example couldn't play a tank to save my soul but I haven't had more deaths than kills in countless games while playing any of the mage champions. To somehow create "Flow" in an enviroment with so many variables that are absolutely unpredictable would be for all intents and purposes impossible.

My next point is just because a college text book says it's true doesn't mean it is. It's undoubtably wrong in some circumstances. Alot of players enjoy being able to destroy thier enemies without fail and there are even some who enjoy trying to fight the good fight right untill the end.


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SFSC

Senior Member

01-11-2011

How do you know how Riot's flow is. You have no idea how much street cred Zileas has. His rhythm and flow could be extensive.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-11-2011
2 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFSC View Post
How do you know how Riot's flow is. You have no idea how much street cred Zileas has. His rhythm and flow could be extensive.
Actually, I have no rhythm. But the design department staff does. Morello was a backup dancer for Vanilla Ice before he got into game design.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-11-2011
3 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Actually, I have no rythm. But the design department staff does. Morello was a backup dancer for Vanilla Ice before he got into game design.
God**** it Zil, I told you to never divulge my obsession for early 90's hip-hop dancing.

I was another person. It was another life.