"Flow" is what Riot developers should be providing

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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

01-11-2011

The problem is that in order to maintain an accurate level of challenge, players must be accurately placed and games must be able to end or reset conditions once the confines of 'flow' have been exceeded. Take the single player game example, when you die on a harder level you will generally go back to the beginning of the level with you new, improved skillset.

The concept of flow was not originally meant to, nor does it accurately describe multiplayer game settings. If anything was to advance flow in this game it would be early surrender, and ELO loss based on how badly you lost.


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Tyrald Grimnod

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
Indirectly, in the anti-fun pattern. It is stated as "burden of knowledge".
I'm sorry, but burden of knowledge doesn't present any challenge other than reading and memorizing whole champion list, their abilities and features of mechanics.
Unclear optimization is the anti-pattern you should be talking about. Just so you know.


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Sandie

Senior Member

01-11-2011

This is one way to advertise your book.


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dredzach

Senior Member

01-11-2011

I think burden of knowledge presents a challenge that is overcome the longer you play.

This book was just in one of my classes. I stumbled on the passage. I'm sure it is not the best book to talk about flow, but it does bring it up.


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Cartographer

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Member

01-11-2011

It is really hard to design something like this in a game played by 10 people at once. I have gotten "flow" from this game in maybe a quarter or fifth of my games, and been bored or frustrated in the rest. This was 100% because of either my team mates or the other team. I think the game itself is well designed to encourage close, exciting, and gratifying games, but just do to the random nature of the players you will have a variable gaming experience.

That said, the 20% close games make the 80% boring and frustrating games worthwhile.


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Hotarukin

Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
Indirectly, in the anti-fun pattern. It is stated as "burden of knowledge".
I see your 'challenge is antifun' = 'burden of knowledge' and raise you "darts".
Bullseye is worth more points. Everything else is less. Bet you can't get 3 bullseyes in a row!


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Stillhart

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
Indirectly, in the anti-fun pattern. It is stated as "burden of knowledge".
In the part you quoted it said:

Quote:
...the challenges at hand in a goal-directed, rule-bound action systemthat provides clear cues as to how well one is performing
Burden of knowledge has to do with unclear cues as to what's going on. Your entire quote there supports Zileas' ideas.

I think flow is a great theory and I read a lot about it when the game "Flow" came out, as well as the next game by the same author, "Flower". Flow doesn't always apply to gaming, it applies to any activity like dancing or snowboarding or woodworking or whatever floats your boat.

What you don't seem to grasp about flow is that what you consider adequately challenging, others may consider too difficult. The only way to truly setup a multiplayer environment that supports flow is to make the skill-set itself relatively simple but in-depth so that PLAYER skill is what provides the challenge. At that point, flow comes from being properly matched up against similarly skilled opponents.

Making champions that are too complex takes away from the potential for flow, if you ask me. Think of it like learning to ride a motorcycle: at the beginning, you're concentrating more on "okay...left hand clutch, right hand kill throttle, left foot shift...uhhh up.. no DOWN cuz I'm in neutral...." etc. Once all that mechanical stuff becomes second nature, the bike becomes transparent, an interface between you and the road. You put your entire concentration on apexing correctly and rolling on through the corners and trail braking correctly so you don't high-side, etc...RIDING.

Learning the champion is like learning the mechanics of operating a motorcycle. Playing LoL once you know your champion (all champions?) is like actually riding. that's where the flow comes in. Don't make the champs too complex or you can't put your concentration into actually PLAYING.


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Stillhart

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotarukin View Post
I see your 'challenge is antifun' = 'burden of knowledge' and raise you "darts".
Bullseye is worth more points. Everything else is less. Bet you can't get 3 bullseyes in a row!
1 - Triple 20, 19, 18 and 17 are all worth more than a double-bullseye.
2 - You CAN hit 3 inner-bulls in a row. Trust me.


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SetzerValorin

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
I think burden of knowledge presents a challenge that is overcome the longer you play.

This book was just in one of my classes. I stumbled on the passage. I'm sure it is not the best book to talk about flow, but it does bring it up.
You're really full of yourself if you think any designer worth his salt doesn't already know about flow and how to create an achievable flow for all degrees of play. You should really look at the staff bio's and get familiar with their backgrounds. Most of them have been doing this professionally for a long time.

Also, telling them that their game isn't challenging is silly. On what basis of experimentation do you present this information? Is it a single-case study? Because that's a pretty narrow band of information. If it's so easy as to induce boredom, as you seem to be claiming in your original post, does this mean that my 70 year old grandpa (who yes, plays video games) would be bored because of how easy it is? What about my 6 year old godson? What about mothers between the ages of 25-45?

What demographic did you use to determine the game wasn't challenging? What was the extent of your research study? Or are we (and Riot) supposed to accept your conclusion without any real evidence? Come on college boy, this is all stuff you should have learned to do by now.


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Gigiwoo

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Nice thing about a pvp game is this tends to happen anyway with good skill selection.

We try to follow the super mario brothers pattern, which is escalating tension with breaks in between, to a finale. It works in drama too.

- Zileas
This.

To the OP, the designers already know about flow. Glad you are learning about game design and have discovered Czikszentmihalyi's wonderful theory of flow. It's frequently written about (Jenova Chen, Jesse Schell, and Raph Koster for instance), easily understood, and fundamentally essential to games.

To the OP, LOL does a wonderful job with flow already. The MM pushes you up/down until you begin to play with people your own skill. Your level is also used to help match you roughly with people who are 'assumed' to be closer to your skill, then your wins/losses help that further narrow that.

Ask yourself this: If LoL doesn't exhibit wonderful Flow, then why do people play this game for months on end, with 2 maps?

Answer: It does. Your skill changes and the game changes (new champs, maps, champ patches, item changes) all the time. It is rarely boring because the game constantly changes and you are learning and challenged again. You improve your skills and level your account to 30 and constantly improve, but so does the competition. Then, you start ranked and it starts all over again. You struggle to get above 1200, then fall below, then fight back, all the while the challenge and your skills are playing tug of war. You then play normal games to improve your skills, which is learning, which is also fun (see Raph Koster).

Gigiwoo.