Guinsoo is working on Fiora

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BlackAndSilver

Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Xohs View Post
Have you honestly played any of the champs? Let's be honest here, I play Gragas, Rengar, AND Skarner. GD completely (and I mean COMPLETELY) blows the reworks out of proportion.

The biggest problems is that most of the champions lose defining qualities that are bad for the game health (Skarner lost permaslow, people lost their ****. Rengar lost insane splitpushing power, and a very long stealth with low amounts of telegraph ability, people lost their ****. Gragas's power got shifted into a way where he isn't 14 miles away from you doing large amounts of damage, people lost their ****. Kassadin lost the ability to silence while choosing every single fight he wants to, people lost their ****), however, all of these guys still have their big things about them real.

Gragas is still that beefy guy who's tossing barrels and has the potential to displace your entire team. Skarner is still that skittering scorpion who can run up, grab one of your big targets, and still beat them with his amazing damage. Rengar is still that cat who comes out of nowhere and does crazy damage while having unique build options. Kassadin is still that anti-mage darting all over the place. These champions aren't ruined, at worse they're numerically weak, which is not an issue of mechanics but an issue of tuning.

Also, you don't see Riot meeting halfway? How about every single thread they made asking for feedback, shifting through the people overreacting, and still taking constructive criticism. They don't have to do that, they do it because the individual designers care about the champions they've reworked. I'm sad about Gragas, yeah. But Solcrushed has responded to me several times within his thread and hopefully some changes will be coming to make him smoother.

FINALLY, all of the designers you're seeing are pretty fresh in the grand scheme of Riot. Guinsoo is the MAN who started from the ground up. He helped make the very first MoBA (DoTA), and was probably the most influential person in the entire project. He was one of the few who deviated to START Riot. He's made champions in the original cast, such as Nunu, Karthus, and Alistar. This guy is why MoBAs are where they are.

And honestly, you're not gonna play her because she's gonna change some day? Really dude, that's weak. You're gonna die some day too, are you gonna not bother living? Because that's the same logic.
It's not entirely that I hate the reworks because they're UP. It's because they're becoming more bland and boring. I HATED Gragas with a passion. I've played him maybe ONCE ever, and I've always hated him as a champion, but damn even when I saw the changes to him I actually felt bad for the people that mained him. Like wow, way to completely screw over everyone who ever enjoyed this champion. (Sure I also had a secret happy side but that's cause of my biased hatred for the fat bastard)

Sure I also hated Kass too, I'm sure everyone did, but wtf did they do to him? Turn him into some kind of AP bruiser? Whatever it is it's boring and it's definitely not Kass. And the fact that I've seen maybe TWO Kass's since the rework may prove that (and those were the day of the patch).

And as you're explaining how each reworked champion is keeping their "identity" abilities, Fiora isn't getting that. This new ult is NOTHING like Fiora at all. No longer untargetable, now RELIES on dashing around which more often than not was useless unless able to dash to allies/wards. Which she can't. And has some steroid thrown in. It's just BORING. Just like what they did to all the other ones, made them boring.

And I'm definitely not familiar with the moba creator's scene, but I played WC3 wayyyy back in the day, and I played the original Dota in custom games on b.net. And although that does seem neat that someone with a little notoriety is doing the job, let's not forget in the past where reworks were "handed over" to other designers. So no one should ever confidently trust one designer when he can end up giving the job to someone else.

Oh and c'mon now real life isn't comparable to champions. The fact that Fiora is going to be changed just truly makes it feel like a lie to play her. So what if I win with her "Oh well she's gunna be deleted anyway". It just feels useless and worthless to the point that there's really no progression at all in touching her now.

But that's my personal feeling toward it, I'm sure other people are different and will spam Fiora every day until she's changed. As for me, it just seems like a waste of time. No use in playing something that won't exist in a month.


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Xohs

Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by BlackAndSilver View Post
It's not entirely that I hate the reworks because they're UP. It's because they're becoming more bland and boring.
What are you even talking about? Rengar's point and click became a skill shot, his mechanics didn't even change from that point, just numbers. It was hardly even a rework.

Gragas had power shifted and his "maintain this always buff" turned into an actual skill you can use. How is that more bland and boring?

Skarner had a move that wasn't even leveled up until level 12 or so become a priority, and a very valuable move.

Kassadin literally gained a new move in exchange for a silence, instead of a "steroid" (which you hate).

ALL of these reworks have added gameplay, and if anything, made their champions more diverse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAndSilver View Post
Turn him into some kind of AP bruiser?
Without any offense in mind, I don't think you fully understand these reworks, nor where they actually put the champions in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAndSilver View Post
And as you're explaining how each reworked champion is keeping their "identity" abilities, Fiora isn't getting that. This new ult is NOTHING like Fiora at all. No longer untargetable, now RELIES on dashing around which more often than not was useless unless able to dash to allies/wards. Which she can't. And has some steroid thrown in. It's just BORING. Just like what they did to all the other ones, made them boring.
The thing is, the ult is just one part of Fiora's kit. Yeah, that's going. Just like Skarner's permaslow did, and Kassadin's silence did.

Why?

What the hell am I supposed to do when I'm at 30% health under my turret and Fiora has ult up. Cry? What about becoming invisible and hitting targets all around her have ANYTHING to do with a fencer or duelist? Fiora's current kit is difficult to balance because it lacks strategical maneuvering, and it's just uncharacteristic of her class, and that's not even all, parts of her kit have nothing to do with her actual theme.

Why is an ADC focused on abilities, when she wasn't designed to?

Why is a fencer flopping around with medium mobility and actual little fencing?

Why is there lack of decision when she uses ult, and why is there a lack of decision once she ults someone?

Those are the questions that are deciding factors in this rework, and although you may like Blade-Waltz, it doesn't add much depth to the game other than being a really flashy ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAndSilver View Post
Oh and c'mon now real life isn't comparable to champions.
Why bother playing multiplayer video games that won't have a fanbase given an amount of time? Because they're fun now, and if they provide joy to you in this time, does it truly matter how long that feeling prospers as long as it exists?

This is a subjective question, but I still hold my beliefs about playing champions. I knew fully well AP Yi wouldn't live more than a week when Morello made the announcement. I made sure that was one of the best weeks I would ever use Yi with.


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BlackAndSilver

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xohs View Post
Without any offense in mind, I don't think you fully understand these reworks, nor where they actually put the champions in question.
I'm not convinced that these reworks are useful at all or liked by anyone. Like really, where did all their players go?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xohs View Post
The thing is, the ult is just one part of Fiora's kit. Yeah, that's going. Just like Skarner's permaslow did, and Kassadin's silence did.

Why?

What the hell am I supposed to do when I'm at 30% health under my turret and Fiora has ult up. Cry? What about becoming invisible and hitting targets all around her have ANYTHING to do with a fencer or duelist? Fiora's current kit is difficult to balance because it lacks strategical maneuvering, and it's just uncharacteristic of her class, and that's not even all, parts of her kit have nothing to do with her actual theme.

Why is an ADC focused on abilities, when she wasn't designed to?

Why is a fencer flopping around with medium mobility and actual little fencing?

Why is there lack of decision when she uses ult, and why is there a lack of decision once she ults someone?

Those are the questions that are deciding factors in this rework, and although you may like Blade-Waltz, it doesn't add much depth to the game other than being a really flashy ult.
Every single ability is getting reworked. AND she's going to be even more reliant on abilities now, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea she's going to be more of an aa reliant champ.

And as for advice on what to do against a Fiora in that situation: Call for a jungler or someone else to help. Of course that doesn't always work, and if it doesn't then get the hell out of there. Fiora is NOT the only champ that can dive people under towers, in fact a strong majority of champions do that. You can always hard CC her during her ult, and also decide where she's going to land when her ult ends.

Her ult has counter play and that isn't a good enough reason to scrap her because ANY other champion can towerdive you at low health as well.


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TeaVeeBag

Member

04-06-2014

Oink lika beast! Oink lika wiggaaaaa


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
I like the idea of changing Fiora into an agile duelist, relying on hit and run techniques, but isn't that Yasuo's thing? How are you going to differentiate the two sufficiently so that one won't overshadow the other?

And that ult still looks stupid, especially the bonus armor pen. Can you just stop making abilities that are 'in addition to the actual effect, here are a bunch of free stats!' because those are stupid as all hell.
i really like the armor pen though.

melee carries work better with high armor pen values or ad scaling true damage built somewhere into their kit. it makes their damage output more reliable.

and reliable high sustained damage gives them a good advantage in comparison to the more tanky bruisers, or the safer ranged champs.

there have been discussions, that vaynes w passive should have never been given to a ranged adc, and put on a melee adc instead.

i feel the same about jinx as steroid. its far too much for a ranged champion. its even more than fiora currently has, and with potential unlimited duration.

a ranged ad should never be able to outdamage a melee carry in a direct damage race against each other. but jinx actually can do that.


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IS13584a87bd9cdc4a80da2

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Please don't change her ultimate, it's her identity. And it's also satisfying to survive a tower dive and kill the enemies with it. It's like taking away Ashe's arrow, please don't do it.


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Bydlarius0

Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Critmaster Garen View Post
i feel the same about jinx as steroid. its far too much for a ranged champion. its even more than fiora currently has, and with potential unlimited duration.

a ranged ad should never be able to outdamage a melee carry in a direct damage race against each other. but jinx actually can do that.
The thing is, Jinx (unlike Fiora) has virtually no attack speed per level, and her base a-speed is quite low, too. So in the end, Fiora's steroid is actually stronger, uptime notwithstanding. That said, I agree that Jinx is pretty overtuned at the moment, but at least get your facts straight.


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tallgiraffe29

Junior Member

04-06-2014

First of all, Fiora is my favorite champion and I understand and agree why Riot is changing her and it makes total sense.

To begin with I think you are not really getting her "fencing" idea, like Guinsoo said and correctly fencing is not about 10 minutes of sword to sword like we see in movies, in fact, historicaly speaking fencing duels didn't last more then 10 seconds. This means her idea is not to be a melee ADC neither a Yasuo wannabe, she is supposed to be an assassin, and again as Guinsoo said, he can't make an one-hit champion and he is correct, but the idea of "fencing duel" is a fast fight which on LoL language means an assassin.

I saw yesterday something about someone saying that there is no honor in jungling as a duelist, so there is no honor in training too? jungling can be a form of training to a duelist, ideally speaking of a "fencing duelist".

Totally agree with mid/assassin being the main role but not the melee ADC, that just doesn't make any sense on what she is supposed to be. Fencing is all about "at the smallest mistake you die" timing and precision quoting herself. Unless you intend to give her a katana and a sam fisher googles I think this is not the way it should go.


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Bydlarius0 View Post
The thing is, Jinx (unlike Fiora) has virtually no attack speed per level, and her base a-speed is quite low, too. So in the end, Fiora's steroid is actually stronger, uptime notwithstanding. That said, I agree that Jinx is pretty overtuned at the moment, but at least get your facts straight.
i did not see her relatively low inbuilt attack speed per level.

at least that explains the ridiculous 130% bonus. though, since she only needs 3 stacks and loses 1 stack at a time ever 2.5 seconds, its not very difficult for her to repostition and keep the bonus up throughout a pretty damn long period of time.

that 3 second steroid fiora has seems kind of weak in comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tallgiraffe29 View Post
First of all, Fiora is my favorite champion and I understand and agree why Riot is changing her and it makes total sense.

To begin with I think you are not really getting her "fencing" idea, like Guinsoo said and correctly fencing is not about 10 minutes of sword to sword like we see in movies, in fact, historicaly speaking fencing duels didn't last more then 10 seconds. This means her idea is not to be a melee ADC neither a Yasuo wannabe, she is supposed to be an assassin, and again as Guinsoo said, he can't make an one-hit champion and he is correct, but the idea of "fencing duel" is a fast fight which on LoL language means an assassin.

I saw yesterday something about someone saying that there is no honor in jungling as a duelist, so there is no honor in training too? jungling can be a form of training to a duelist, ideally speaking of a "fencing duelist".

Totally agree with mid/assassin being the main role but not the melee ADC, that just doesn't make any sense on what she is supposed to be. Fencing is all about timing and precision quoting herself. Unless you intend to give her a katana and a sam fisher googles I think this is not the way it should go.
im pretty shure duels against melee adc rarely last more than 10 seconds, so its not mutually exclusive.

the idea was to make her damage more sustained, and make her more mobile at the same time.

she positions, goes in to land a few autoattacks, then disengages and repositions. and so forth. the idea is to make her and her oppoinent dance back and forth, while exchanging and blocking hits.


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tallgiraffe29

Junior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Critmaster Garen View Post
im pretty shure duels against melee adc rarely last more than 10 seconds, so its not mutually exclusive.

the idea was to make her damage more sustained, and make her more mobile at the same time.

she positions, goes in to land a few autoattacks, then disengages and repositions. and so forth. the idea is to make her and her oppoinent dance back and forth, while exchanging and blocking hits.
Exactly if you are talking about a samurai, not a fencer/duelist