1000+ AP for heimer?

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Addison16

Senior Member

01-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Oh, as a side note, Rylai's effect counts as "single target" for rockets, so they do the full 35% slow.
You sure about that?


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addison16 View Post
You sure about that?
Yes I'm sure.

Edit: Here's a video of someone doing what I described with Heimer and his turrets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L06izwgFCA8


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konfetarius

Senior Member

01-10-2011

Stun duration doesn't improve, but base cooldown does. At high CDR with max level grenades you are firing a 3 (or is it 3.5?) second blind every 6 seconds. Plus, while Grenades don't have the range of rockets, they keep enemies in range of your allies - which is more valuable in ganks. Also, lower cooldown means you can check bushes more freely with less repercussion.

Another advantage for grenades is that they don't get screwed over by positioning of enemy tanks.

It's a question of DPS (rockets have moar) against utility of having a spammable disable. I view Heimer as a great support nuker, so I think it's more valuable to build him as such early on. Plus, Rockets and Grenade have very similar damage/ap ratios - so you aren't missing out on that much damage output.

Also, nice to know that rockets do function as single target slows.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Stun duration doesn't improve, but base cooldown does. At high CDR with max level grenades you are firing a 3 (or is it 3.5?) second blind every 6 seconds. Plus, while Grenades don't have the range of rockets, they keep enemies in range of your allies - which is more valuable in ganks. Also, lower cooldown means you can check bushes more freely with less repercussion.

Another advantage for grenades is that they don't get screwed over by positioning of enemy tanks.

It's a question of DPS (rockets have moar) against utility of having a spammable disable. I view Heimer as a great support nuker, so I think it's more valuable to build him as such early on. Plus, Rockets and Grenade have very similar damage/ap ratios - so you aren't missing out on that much damage output.

Also, nice to know that rockets do function as single target slows.
With Heimerdinger you're not building CDR items. You're relying on your ult + masteries and runes. As such, your CDR is completely dependent on your level. By level 16 (when you get the last of your CDR) it won't matter what order you leveled things at.

With Heimerdinger, you will be between 9 and 12 by the time team fights start. Before then, you'll kill more, and turn away more ganks with your rockets than you will with the grenade. If you grab your first point in Grenade at level 10, by level 11 you will have a grenade every 9.1 seconds. If you had leveled Grenades first, at level 11 you would have a grenade every 7 seconds. Is that 2.1 second difference in Grenade frequency really worth significantly weaker early game harass and gank deterrent? I think not.

Also, with regards to lobbing a grenade past their tanks to hit their squishies, I would venture to guess even a really good Heimer player misses that more often than they hit it, for the simple reason that the grenade is slow and obnoxious looking. If you're throwing it at the length of its range, even Ashe with no boots could dodge it. The majority of the time that you land your grenade is when the enemy is relatively close to you, chasing you or running away. If the tanks are zoning you away from the squishies, you have a better chance of shooting a rocket at them (having the tanks soak up 1 or 2 of them).


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konfetarius

Senior Member

01-11-2011

It's not just a 2.1 second differences by level 11. It's a 2.8 second difference by level 12. And it's a massive difference in blind duration. Those differences can mean saving an allied carry from an assassin, those differences mean significantly slowing down Yi's DPS.

Though, this really depends on team compositions. If we look at primarily caster based enemy team, you are probably right, rocket poking is more valuable because it weakens tanks and can bring squishies dangerously close to dying to an initiation burst. If we look at a primarily AD based enemy team, nade becomes more valuable because AD heroes spend a lot less time dancing and are actually screwed even by a nade that doesn't directly stun them.

If that Yi or Shaco waits 2-3 seconds after fight start before charging in? You are gonna wish you had that nade 2.8 seconds sooner.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

01-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
It's not just a 2.1 second differences by level 11. It's a 2.8 second difference by level 12. And it's a massive difference in blind duration. Those differences can mean saving an allied carry from an assassin, those differences mean significantly slowing down Yi's DPS.

Though, this really depends on team compositions. If we look at primarily caster based enemy team, you are probably right, rocket poking is more valuable because it weakens tanks and can bring squishies dangerously close to dying to an initiation burst. If we look at a primarily AD based enemy team, nade becomes more valuable because AD heroes spend a lot less time dancing and are actually screwed even by a nade that doesn't directly stun them.

If that Yi or Shaco waits 2-3 seconds after fight start before charging in? You are gonna wish you had that nade 2.8 seconds sooner.
Assuming we are prioritizing Rockets over Grenades in the early game and Grenades over Rockets after level 10, and Turrets over both Rockets and Grenades all game long, at level 12 you can either have Grenade [2] (3 in Rocket Early), or Grenade [5] (0 in Rocket Early).

Grenade 2 = 12 second base CD, 8.4 second after CDR, 1.5 second blind

Grenade 5 = 9 second base CD, 6.3 second after CDR, 3 second blind

That's what you are trading for a stronger early game. 1.5 seconds of blind, 2.1 second shorter CD.

Does it still seem worth it?

(These calculations are done assuming you have 15% CDR in masteries/runes and you take Upgrade whenever it's available.)


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Grinningsphinx

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetsem View Post
Hello everyone,

I was recently told I suck with heimer, who is my favorite champ, because my AP was only about 500. They said it should be above 1k and closer to 1500. If this correct and if it is how do you get that high?

Also I would like some recommended items for heimer please.

Lastly does the turrets damage go up with atack power or with ability power?

Thank you in advance.

Gadget
uh...people are lying?


you should be able to EASILY control a lane with 500 AP...dont listen to ******s who dont know what they are talking about.


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FuzzyStarburst

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Recruiter

01-12-2011

For one, 1000 AP is silly, I usually end up at 700ish, depends on the game.

I suggest a good mana item early. His mana is what holds him back most early game. I go for the +200 mana, then Catalyst first. It really helps you stay in lane early game, and it can build into an offensive or defensive item, depending on what you need. It might not be the best item in the world, but it's solid and will really help you get other things alot faster. After that, it's situational. AP, survival, and auras need to be balanced based on who you're fighting and how well you've farmed. You generally want to go for health and mana.

Finally, turrets get stronger with Ability Power.


Note: If you're not levelling turrets at every opportunity, play another champion. There are much better stuns and harasses than Heimer's.


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