AP Ryze: Toggle the Mage!

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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

01-07-2010

Not bad, about time we got another Ryze guide :P

Couple of quick points,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patyrn View Post
Not entirely true. Ryze AP ratios are actually excellent. Overload isn't so great, but that's because it scales off mana too. Rune prison and flux are both good.
Overload actually has the highest AP ratio of all his skills at .45:1, Spell Flux and Rune Prison both only have a ratio of .33:1

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0ggle View Post
You need this magic pen to put the enemy into negative magic resist early game combined with exhaust so that you not only have your damage go straight to their hp but make them take increased damage! The Cooldown reduction however is a small boost to your spell refreshing.
Magic pen is useful, and depending on enemy resist, actually more effective than additional AP. However, PENETRATION is not able to take resist into negative, so penetration early game will only bring their MR down to 0.


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

Ya overload also scales to mana where as spell flux does not.

O magic resist is considered negative to me, lol.


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Phoxly

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Well I tested the build last night, it was alright, and the damage from Overload was WAY better than Spellflux, as 0ggle said, but my kill ratio was down a lot, quite a few times they were just out of my range, they escaped with 200-500 hp, or I couldn't rely on my lane partner to finish them off.

When I play Overload AND Spellflux, the damage ouput is better than just Overload, and even with level 2 Rune Prison I am able to Exhaust --> Rune Prison --> Ult --> Spell Flux--> Overload and it will easily kill any character under 1500 HP.

Going with just plain Overload was not very good for me. I actually didn't get very many kills at all (just assists) until around level 15-16 when I got my level 3 Ult and got Spellflux leveled up a bit, then I was literally scaling the map just LOOKING for someone to 1v1 and take out.

lvl 5 Overload + lvl 5 Rune Prison > lvl 5 Spellflux

lvl 5 Overload + lvl 5 Rune Prison < lvl 5 Spellflux + lvl 5 Overload + Lvl 2 Rune Prison

Also with a 3rd spell to spam, your gaining 1 second off your cooldown for the other 2 spells each time you cast it.


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoxly View Post
Well I tested the build last night, it was alright, and the damage from Overload was WAY better than Spellflux, as 0ggle said, but my kill ratio was down a lot, quite a few times they were just out of my range, they escaped with 200-500 hp, or I couldn't rely on my lane partner to finish them off.

When I play Overload AND Spellflux, the damage ouput is better than just Overload, and even with level 2 Rune Prison I am able to Exhaust --> Rune Prison --> Ult --> Spell Flux--> Overload and it will easily kill any character under 1500 HP.

Going with just plain Overload was not very good for me. I actually didn't get very many kills at all (just assists) until around level 15-16 when I got my level 3 Ult and got Spellflux leveled up a bit, then I was literally scaling the map just LOOKING for someone to 1v1 and take out.

lvl 5 Overload + lvl 5 Rune Prison > lvl 5 Spellflux

lvl 5 Overload + lvl 5 Rune Prison < lvl 5 Spellflux + lvl 5 Overload + Lvl 2 Rune Prison

Also with a 3rd spell to spam, your gaining 1 second off your cooldown for the other 2 spells each time you cast it.
A fed singe or ryze is a badass gremilin, to me assists still give gold, and my laning partner eats up so much gold from the kills it helps us win the game later.
If you really believe spell flux is a must though, get it at level 8, not 7 or 9 because you need overload maxed out quickly.

I would like to ask though, who you laned with btw.


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Pinith

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
Overload actually has the highest AP ratio of all his skills at .45:1, Spell Flux and Rune Prison both only have a ratio of .33:1
A listed AP ratio is much different from the actual ratio. Spell flux has 5 orbs, each of which has the .33 AP ratio. There is also the ultimate to factor in. If secondary bounces are all near your primary target, he takes .33+.22+.22+.22+.22 = 1.23 * AP extra damage! With strategic casting of spell flux and ultimate you beat out veigar for the best AP ratio.

I also totally disagree with not getting spell flux immediately. It is the best spell Rhyze has in conjunction with his ultimate, and also scales the best with AP (again, because of his ultimate). You might as well skip his ultimate entirely if you are so attached to your "unique" build.

Spell flux scales much better than overload with added points (overload damage mostly increases with your mana pool). It is also strange to call this an AP build when overload gets the biggest benefit from mana, not AP.

Even a single point of spell flux is good for the MR reduction. A single 0-damage bounce of spell flux drops MR by 15, which would raise your overload damage by ~10%. This is often more than an extra rank of the ability would net you. This comparison makes 1 rank of spell flux better than the additional rank in overload, and doesn't even take into account spell flux bounces or damage--just the MR debuff.

The same player using this build versus any other Rhyze build would do worse.


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

pinith, Overload deals more damage then spell flux, spell flux would have to hit the same enemy 3 times, wich rarely happens because thered have to be no minions or only 1 unti near your target, making this the worst spell to max out damage.
As for telling me to completely skip my ulti, have you forgotten and the ulti doesn't just give 65% aoe but ability power gain aswell? I don't understand why you would say such a stupid thing.
the ability power from your ulti, put in with overload maxs out its damage even more. Its all burst nuke method and its worked wonders with my singe laning stratedgy.
Wich ever of you feeds off the deaths, even if you get assists, your both still eating up gold from kills/assists.

As a last note, why would you say anyone using this build besides any other ryze build will do worse, am I supposed to take this as an insult?


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinith View Post
A listed AP ratio is much different from the actual ratio. Spell flux has 5 orbs, each of which has the .33 AP ratio. There is also the ultimate to factor in. If secondary bounces are all near your primary target, he takes .33+.22+.22+.22+.22 = 1.23 * AP extra damage! With strategic casting of spell flux and ultimate you beat out veigar for the best AP ratio.
Pinith, I think you're confusing AP ratios with overall damage from AP. The AP ratios listed are correct, and don't change. AP ratio is just the amount of extra damage you get per every 1 AP.

Veigar's skills have AP ratios of .6:1, 1:1 and 1.2:1 all of which are higher than any of Ryze's ratios.

You are right in that the over damage from Spell Flux will do more than Overload at any AP level if all 3 of the bounces hit your primary target or if the target is hit by the AoE from 5 bounces.


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LackofCertainty

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Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0ggle View Post
pinith, Overload deals more damage then spell flux, spell flux would have to hit the same enemy 3 times, wich rarely happens because thered have to be no minions or only 1 unti near your target, making this the worst spell to max out damage.
As for telling me to completely skip my ulti, have you forgotten and the ulti doesn't just give 65% aoe but ability power gain aswell? I don't understand why you would say such a stupid thing.
the ability power from your ulti, put in with overload maxs out its damage even more. Its all burst nuke method and its worked wonders with my singe laning stratedgy.
Wich ever of you feeds off the deaths, even if you get assists, your both still eating up gold from kills/assists.

As a last note, why would you say anyone using this build besides any other ryze build will do worse, am I supposed to take this as an insult?
First, no one would ever skip getting Ryze's ulti asap. I think you misread his post, toggle. (or maybe I did?) Either way Ryze's ulti is always taken over every other ability.


Toggle, what you're not realizing is that the only downside of using spell flux and overload is that it burns through more mana.....

BUT

You stack mana as Ryze, so you have plenty of mana to burn through (unless you're doing something ungodly wrong)


Next game you play, substitute one level of spell flux for one level of overload. When you go to kill someone Cast Spell flux, then Rune Prison, then Overload. (or prison, flux, overload, if you think they're going to get out of your range)

Once you get your ulti, the cast order switches to Spell flux, activate ultimate before the spell flux hits (it gets the benefit of the ulti and also gets cd reduction from you casting your ulti after it) and then prison and overload. This cast order reduces the cd for your spell flux by 4.5 seconds, which means it's cd is effectively halved (without any cd reduction items) which allows you to get off a 2nd spell flux before your ulti runs out. (which makes all the difference in a team fight)

Your overload damage drops a bit but spell flux + overload does more damage, even if spell flux only hits once. If it hits multiple times then your damage can realistically double over just using overload alone. Also, you don't really have to worry about the mana, because spell flux gives you another spell to spam to trigger the tear. Once you get a tear you should never run out of mana ever again, unless you're allowed to lane for half the game unharassed.


I don't want to sound condescending, but your Ryze build is strictly worse for not using spell flux, and I don't want new players to use this guide and think that Ryze is weak. I understand that you don't want your Ryze build to be too similar to the other Ryze builds, but you're gimping your Ryze just to be different.



One last note. Getting an assist is fine and all, but (unless you're laning with a carry) you need the kill more than your lane-mate does. When Ryze gets fed, he can rape, in the same way an annie/veigar can. (and I would argue that he's more dangerous because of his ulti making all of his spells be aoe)


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T0ggle

Member

01-07-2010

@lackofcertainty
Spell flux only does more damage if it hits the same 3times, after singe tosses someone I snare, overload and we block him from running back, if you can make 2 human walls while the enemy runs back + any slows, then you both get enough melee hits in to kill him. doing this method has never gotten me killed nor my laning partner singe.

I've already tryd using spell flux as you are asking me, you've got a good method going but it just didn't work out for me, thats why I tryd my own path, because this one worked out for me.

I understand you don't want to sound condencending, but the fact that you say you don't want noobs using my guide is pretty much insulting.
Its open to the public to decide on wether or not these guides are helpfull, and I'd like you to at least try this method of mine with a pro singe partner. then tell me your experience, if you, nor him are getting kills something is definitly wrong.

on your last note, have you ever seen a pro singe get fed, he is basicly the gremilin of all tanks, imo hes the best tank in the game besides nunu.(but nunu sucks against cleanse)
Getting assists is still eating gold, meaning your ryze is still getting fed with enough assists, and your singe keeps getting rod of ages quickly.


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Patyrn

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
pinith, Overload deals more damage then spell flux, spell flux would have to hit the same enemy 3 times, wich rarely happens because thered have to be no minions or only 1 unti near your target, making this the worst spell to max out damage.
Rank 1 Overload deals more damage than rank 1 spell flux unless it hits the same enemy 3 times.

Rank 1 Overload + rank 1 Spell flux deals more damage than rank 2 Overload ALWAYS and has the potential to do MUCH more.

I hate to say it, because a lot of things are all about preference, but it's a mathematical fact that one point in all 3 skills is superior burst AND dps. In fact, if your lane partner is singed then spell flux becomes even more amazing, because the -MR will buff poison damage, and singed's toss will probably get your target away from creeps so it bounces on the enemy multiple times.

Also, people are completely mistaken about Ryze's AP ratios in general. Spells that do damage in multiple hits have a low listed gain from AP, but you have to multiply it by # of hits. For example, I believe rune prison is a 2.4 AP ratio. The reason you build Ryze as CD reduction\penetration is that he has built in AP, so you can build to maximize on that. It's the same reason that champs like Mundo build AS or Crit for damage.