It just me of does Vivi suck?

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Midnight

Senior Member

08-11-2009

I am with Locust on this one. I think veigar is very strong and I have done very well in lots of matches with him. His aoe stun is HUGE and help so many other characters abilities flourish. (amumu's ult, nunu's ult, etc) Also, his aoe nuke is one of the hardest hitting spells in the game, and it's aoe! His ult is just icing on the cake. Obviously you aren't going to be doing any 1v5 with veigar and killing everyone but I can't tell you how many times during an enemy team push on my tower I get all of them to half by myself using the stun and aoe nuke and then my team comes in and mops up, we push and do some serious damage. Veigar is great.... his passive is still shabby imo but meh. >.>


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Commodore Frank

Adjudicator

08-11-2009

I think Veigar does quite well in team battles. Being able to trap a whole team is nothing to scoff at. Sure, he's not the best killer in the game, but he makes up for it in defense and push power.


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StaticFrog

Senior Member

08-11-2009

Vivi is a very powerful hero when used correctly.
But i do agree that his ulti is that great, but other than that he is amazing. Vivi can easily take out all of the enemy mages with dark matter, maybe even the others if you have enough ap, making him a farming machine. Not to mention is AOE stun. Its great to use to escape or to gank initiate. And it works perfectly with his dark matter skill.
He's a fairly balanced hero, not weak at all.


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Vindico Atrum

Member

08-11-2009

His problem is relative to other champions.

Once every 2 mins, he can shred a caster. Annie/Lich/Soraka/Etc.

But. Ryze can shred ANYONE once every 2 mins, if he catches them alone.

Veigar needs to catch a mage alone, or he dies, so why take him over ryze? AoE stun? Not really, just don't run out of it. Single target root+damage? Yes please.


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Drakes

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Senior Member

08-11-2009

Veigar is fine, his event horizon ability is his main selling point. Its pretty overpowered currently since its an ult quality ability there(granted no damage done by it). Hes nice if you keep scoring kills with his basic nuke, free AP through the entire game. Dark matter is pretty interesting, since it causes most players to quickly get out of the way. If you can get its placement well, you'll be forcing players to zig zag all over.

Also depends on how much melee other side is packing, Veigar is nuts if opposing team is packing 3+ melee.


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Wana

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Member

08-11-2009

Permanent AP gain in the form of Baleful Strike, a 1:1 AP Ratio AoE nuke that shreds creep waves, an AoE stun that can disable entire teams, and an anti-mage ultimate is nothing to laugh about. When compared to other mage-type Champions like Annie and Ryze, Veigar lacks quick burst damage and is squishier than average.

The only thing that needs work is his Passive. It's only effective in the laning phase where Veigar has no other choice but to attack.


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Solus

Senior Member

08-11-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wana View Post
Permanent AP gain in the form of Baleful Strike, a 1:1 AP Ratio AoE nuke that shreds creep waves, an AoE stun that can disable entire teams, and an anti-mage ultimate is nothing to laugh about. When compared to other mage-type Champions like Annie and Ryze, Veigar lacks quick burst damage and is squishier than average.

The only thing that needs work is his Passive. It's only effective in the laning phase where Veigar has no other choice but to attack.
This and there should be a 5~ second debuff for baleful/primordial instead of this "You have to KS/last hit like a ***** to be decent". I think it's flawed that a caster has to steal last hits from everyone just because it's the only way he can be viable.


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Miserain

Junior Member

08-11-2009

TL;DR inc*:

I can see how one could think Veigar is weak. It doesn't surprise me at all that someone who habitually plays Karthus would feel this way. Karthus is all about the nonstop AoE damage, where Veigar hits all of his buttons on one dude, and sits on his hands. He is largely a support hero, who can sometimes get a gank.

Where he is instrumental is in a team battle. In my personal experience, in a team battle, my rings stun 2-4 heroes on average. Usually while everyone is at a slowed hault, I can oneshot their caster. If I can't oneshot the caster, incidental AE damage finishes them off. The team you are fighting against is now at a distinct disadvantage because their biggest AoEr has just fallen, and yours is still alive.

Rings let you decide where the fight takes place, even if you can't circle all enemy heroes with them. You can use them as area denial. Rings + Cryo Wall or Karthus Wall are even more powerful, locking heroes on both sides and allow your AoE hero to deal much more damage. A resourceful Veigar will also use terrain to his fullest advantage.

~*~*~

I do, however, believe that the last hit mechanic on Baleful Strike leaves room for wanting. At the end of a 5v5 premade match, I may have 40 spell power from last hitting. In a world where people stay in their designated lanes until level 18, this would obviously not be the case. But many teams start pushing at 7 or 11, and the level-up game is over. It's now time to start winning team battles and pushing the creeps back as quickly as possible. Sure there are creeps that you could be shooting during a team battle, but do you really want to waste one of your precious 3 (4) cooldowns on them? No way.

The mana and time spent trying to last hit creeps with Baleful Strike will yield less rewards (money AND spellpower) than those that you could receive by spamming meteor and getting superior items. Not to mention you're pushing creeps much more slowly.

The nail in the coffin on Baleful Strike for me was finding out that people don't dodge meteor as effectively in the chaos of a team battle, so it becomes more viable when it matters.

~*~*~

Re: Tears build. I shared your sentiment actually when I was trying to last hit with Baleful Strike, because I was constantly running OOM. Then I found at the end of the game I had WAY too much mana. This time invested could have been better spent with a Rod of Ages. So, instead, I just tried to get hero kill/last hits with it. Life was much better for me once I learned the power of the Meteor push, and my build became:

1. Sorc Boots.
2. Codex of Fiendish whatever makes my cooldowns lower.
3. Rod of Ages.
4. Whatever, usually another Rod of Ages.

You build is Meteor, Rings, Meteor, Strike, Meteor, Ult, Metor, Rings -> whatever. Level 3 Meteor oneshots creeps I think. I could be wrong.

*Your experience may vary.
** I'll probably end up finding a better item build than Rod of Ages, but the HP is nice for now.


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Solus

Senior Member

08-11-2009

Miserain, I've found that the Chalice is an extremely potent item for Veigar early on, the 40 spell res alone is very nice, the mana regen is just icing on the cake.


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Aqualisk

Senior Member

08-11-2009

I think most of Veigar's problems stem from the fact that in order to be effective against other champions you have to have two skills max'd. Dark Matter and his stun. Without his stun Dark Matter rarely lands on his target, even if they're slowed they can escape the radius easily. Secondly if you choose to level your stun first without Dark Matter leveled he lacks damage to take down other champions. Veigar has one primary role and one only and that is damage. He can back up with his stun, but again that has to be close to max level to be effective. A third point is that Veigar requires one point spent on Balefulstrike at the beginning of the match in order to make use of the ability's secondary effect. This leaves Veigar rather starved for skill points.

I think a good way to fix him currently would be to lower the delay time on Dark Matter. This would make fighting other champions easier. And leave him less dependent on his stun for effective champion battles.